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From a (slightly) insider perspective, companies that want the latest node actually pay billions of dollars yearly to TSMC for both factory construction and res

From a (slightly) insider perspective, companies that want the latest node actually pay billions of dollars yearly to TSMC for both factory construction and research, not just production capacity. Thus, in a few years anyone will be able to buy similar production capacity for the same cost, but Apple is bearing massive upfront costs others will not need to pay, for the privilege of being first. I'd call that a benefit for everyone, not anti-competitive. TSMC claims that without this investment, new nodes would be far less frequently deployed, so somebody has to be willing to pay the upfront to help them out.

nicolaslem 4y ago
That's a good point. However from a consumer and enthusiast perspective I would like all competitors to be able to compete on level playing field to see which one gets the most out of the technology.
- themitigating 4y ago
  What would allow them to get the most out of some technology if the playing field is level? What's the difference between having an agreement with a factory and having a better employee?
- piva00 4y ago
  Then it's not a free market anymore. And I say that being a very leftist person, what you wish isn't compatible with capitalism as it is.
acomjean 4y ago
Apple isn't doing this to be altruistic. They see a huge business advantage. Look at the hype on HN the M1/M2 MacBooks have.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  They don't have to be altruistic. Without Apple's investment or similar, TSMC is very clear they would deploy new nodes far less frequently, simply because they could not otherwise afford it.
- joshstrange 4y ago
  Apple doesn't need to be altruistic for something to be good for the industry as a whole. Also the M1/M2 hype is well deserved. Sure they aren't gaming computers but pulling off the transition with zero issues for normal people and relatively minor issues for developers (mac, web, any type) is impressive, especially with the battery life and how cool these run.
  - Msw242 4y ago
    This is the miracle of capitalism and markets; we harness the greed of people and groups of people for the forward movement of society.
    - piva00 4y ago
      I wouldn't say it always propels society forward. It pushes and pulls and eventually some forward momentum grows but the forward movement comes much more from basic research and eventual applications of it. Most basic research wouldn't survive with pure market capitalism at all.
    - tehjoker 4y ago
      *consumer technology
Server6 4y ago
This. Apple massively subsidizes these chips on the research, development, and construction end. Without Apple TSMC wouldn't exist.
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  I wouldn't go so far as to say that TSMC wouldn't exist without Apple. TSMC was and continues to be the preferred manufacturer for many other fabless design companies, like Nvidia, AMD, and MediaTek.
  - arroz 4y ago
    Nvidia used Samsung before AMD used global foundries Idk about mediatek, could be What started the TSMC “boom” was apple
    - theandrewbailey 4y ago
      TSMC probably got big when Apple started using them for everything. Historically, Nvidia has used TSMC for most Geforce cards (sometimes using another foundry like Samsung), and even the earlier TNT2[0] from 1999. AMD bought ATI, which has been using TSMC for some Radeon chips going back 15[1] if not 20[2] years. [0] https://www.techspot.com/article/653-history-of-the-gpu-part-2/ https://www.techspot.com/article/653-history-of-the-gpu-part... "The TNT2 utilized TSMC's 250nm process and managed to deliver the performance Nvidia had hoped for with the original TNT." [1] https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/company/newsroom/press-releases/pr/2005/aticadenceandtsmcproduceindustrysfirstfablessxarchitecturechip.html https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/company/newsroom/press-re... [2] https://www.techspot.com/article/657-history-of-the-gpu-part-3/ https://www.techspot.com/article/657-history-of-the-gpu-part...
    - bildung 4y ago
      If you look at TSMC's revenue this doesn't seem to be the case: https://companiesmarketcap.com/tsmc/revenue/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/tsmc/revenue/ Ignoring the 2014 outlier (2013 was the year Apple started using TSMC) the growth curve looks pretty uniform for the last two decades.
smoldesu 4y ago
That would be true if other competing offers weren't getting turned away. Nvidia dumped 9 billion dollars into TSMC last year just to get a fools ransom of 5nm wafers. They don't even get the option to buy 3nm, so it's not about 'continued investment' or anything. TSMC is simply optimizing for their most lucrative customer, the failure is not with them but rather capitalism failing to incentivize fair treatment of all their customers. I don't think TSMC or Apple is to blame here, but the displacement of the semiconductor industry has been pretty disastrous over the past 3 years. It needs to stop, and it starts by breaking up nonsense exclusivity deals like this one.

nicolaslem 4y ago

That's a good point. However from a consumer and enthusiast perspective I would like all competitors to be able to compete on level playing field to see which one gets the most out of the technology.

themitigating 4y ago
What would allow them to get the most out of some technology if the playing field is level? What's the difference between having an agreement with a factory and having a better employee?
piva00 4y ago
Then it's not a free market anymore. And I say that being a very leftist person, what you wish isn't compatible with capitalism as it is.

acomjean 4y ago

Apple isn't doing this to be altruistic. They see a huge business advantage. Look at the hype on HN the M1/M2 MacBooks have.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
They don't have to be altruistic. Without Apple's investment or similar, TSMC is very clear they would deploy new nodes far less frequently, simply because they could not otherwise afford it.
joshstrange 4y ago
Apple doesn't need to be altruistic for something to be good for the industry as a whole. Also the M1/M2 hype is well deserved. Sure they aren't gaming computers but pulling off the transition with zero issues for normal people and relatively minor issues for developers (mac, web, any type) is impressive, especially with the battery life and how cool these run.
- Msw242 4y ago
  This is the miracle of capitalism and markets; we harness the greed of people and groups of people for the forward movement of society.
  - piva00 4y ago
    I wouldn't say it always propels society forward. It pushes and pulls and eventually some forward momentum grows but the forward movement comes much more from basic research and eventual applications of it. Most basic research wouldn't survive with pure market capitalism at all.
  - tehjoker 4y ago
    *consumer technology

Server6 4y ago

This. Apple massively subsidizes these chips on the research, development, and construction end. Without Apple TSMC wouldn't exist.

theandrewbailey 4y ago
I wouldn't go so far as to say that TSMC wouldn't exist without Apple. TSMC was and continues to be the preferred manufacturer for many other fabless design companies, like Nvidia, AMD, and MediaTek.
- arroz 4y ago
  Nvidia used Samsung before AMD used global foundries Idk about mediatek, could be What started the TSMC “boom” was apple
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    TSMC probably got big when Apple started using them for everything. Historically, Nvidia has used TSMC for most Geforce cards (sometimes using another foundry like Samsung), and even the earlier TNT2[0] from 1999. AMD bought ATI, which has been using TSMC for some Radeon chips going back 15[1] if not 20[2] years. [0] https://www.techspot.com/article/653-history-of-the-gpu-part-2/ https://www.techspot.com/article/653-history-of-the-gpu-part... "The TNT2 utilized TSMC's 250nm process and managed to deliver the performance Nvidia had hoped for with the original TNT." [1] https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/company/newsroom/press-releases/pr/2005/aticadenceandtsmcproduceindustrysfirstfablessxarchitecturechip.html https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/company/newsroom/press-re... [2] https://www.techspot.com/article/657-history-of-the-gpu-part-3/ https://www.techspot.com/article/657-history-of-the-gpu-part...
  - bildung 4y ago
    If you look at TSMC's revenue this doesn't seem to be the case: https://companiesmarketcap.com/tsmc/revenue/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/tsmc/revenue/ Ignoring the 2014 outlier (2013 was the year Apple started using TSMC) the growth curve looks pretty uniform for the last two decades.

smoldesu 4y ago

That would be true if other competing offers weren't getting turned away. Nvidia dumped 9 billion dollars into TSMC last year just to get a fools ransom of 5nm wafers. They don't even get the option to buy 3nm, so it's not about 'continued investment' or anything. TSMC is simply optimizing for their most lucrative customer, the failure is not with them but rather capitalism failing to incentivize fair treatment of all their customers. I don't think TSMC or Apple is to blame here, but the displacement of the semiconductor industry has been pretty disastrous over the past 3 years. It needs to stop, and it starts by breaking up nonsense exclusivity deals like this one.