6 ms·

> Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad. I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and

by tauntz 4y ago

> Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad. I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)? From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble? (I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)

Festro 4y ago
I do technical marketing (SEO, ads, analytics) and if I am ever in a spreadsheet I gravitate to the numpad for any numerical data entry. It's like touch-typing, superior way of doing it once you've learnt. No need to use shift for simple calculations, one-handed number typing, using my left hand to tab into the next cell, etc. Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly. WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
- reflexco 4y ago
  Ergonomics is not vanity. Most 100% keyboards don't allow you to have one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse with good posture, which I'm sure for the average user is a more common thing to do than entering long strings of numbers.
  - Festro 4y ago
    One of my first jobs involved assessing desktop users for ergonomic posture when using video display units (PCs). I get that a big keyboard could splay your arms out a bit at angles that aren't ergonomic but practically speaking that'd have to be a very big keyboard. When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good. VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far. So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable. Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched. Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity. I think the point is that the numpad isn't free if you use the mouse with the right hand. It takes space on your desk, between the actual keyboard and the mouse. This stresses the joints a bit more. You either have to grab the mouse way out to the right, or type with your hands to the left. So if you only use the numpad "1% of your day", I'd say there are reasonable reasons, outside of vanity, for preferring a keyboard without the numpad. Sure, if you mainly use the mouse and the keyboard single-handedly (say, like a gamer would), the numpad probably doesn't bother you. I'm not particularly into "vanity shots" of my desk, but I absolutely curse the full-size keyboard whenever I have to use one.
  - Festro 4y ago
    Never really noticed the extra distance but I suppose that's the point - it's all subjective experience. I'm just pointing out that smaller keyboards get the spotlight so often because they're different and not the default. They are more visually appealing for sure, but that extra attention they get doesn't mean that a full keyboard should be ignored either. The OP is asking for feedback on their product launch. For me, a full keyboard user, that was to say they should consider a full keyboard at launch cos they're super common, and often, preferred. In no way am I trying to diminish other people's preferences for smaller keyboards.
dcminter 4y ago
I've a notion that gamers like the numpad? I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I once worked for a company making keyboard training software for bank data entry staff so I still use it if I have it (having become extremely fast using it) but I can't say I miss it when it's not there and as a 99% development user I prefer and own a mechanical keyboard without it.
tiborsaas 4y ago
Entering TOTP codes, bank accounts, spreadsheeting is much more convenient on a 3x3 grid than a row of numbers. It's also nice to have a +- button in the rightmost column.
- bbojan 4y ago
  That's the reason why I have a numpad layer on my 46 key split ortholinear keyboard. Your use case doesn't mean you need a physically separate set of keys for this.
  - tiborsaas 4y ago
    I guess we are at the opposite sides of the spectrum, I like to have a lot of buttons in front of me :) I just got this delivered: https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-keyboard-blue-switch.html https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-key...
Shorel 4y ago
At the very least, the numeric keyboard should be in the center, so the symmetry is not broken.
paledot 4y ago
I reversed the numeric row of my keyboard layout so that the symbols are typed without the shift key and the numerals use the shift key. With that arrangement, a number pad is important for any meaningful numeric input. But as a programmer, I can't stress enough how valuable it is to type symbols without constantly reaching for the shift key. "Programmer Dvorak" does this as well, but then you have to learn a new arrangement of symbols and deal with numerals that aren't in numerical order.
- pmontra 4y ago
  The old Italian keyboard (up to the early 80s) had shifted number over symbols. Can't remember if caps lock worked on numbers too.
pmontra 4y ago
You are not living in a bubble, you are a developer. It seems that we use the number row and people making a living with Excel use the number pad. A friend of mine confirmed that were she works everybody use the number pad except developers. She can't understand why they are doing that. I think we don't type numbers much. The times of BASIC with mandatory line numbers are very very far away. Prediction to test my theory: writers and journalists use the number row too.

by tauntz 4y ago

Festro 4y ago

I do technical marketing (SEO, ads, analytics) and if I am ever in a spreadsheet I gravitate to the numpad for any numerical data entry. It's like touch-typing, superior way of doing it once you've learnt. No need to use shift for simple calculations, one-handed number typing, using my left hand to tab into the next cell, etc. Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly. WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.

reflexco 4y ago
Ergonomics is not vanity. Most 100% keyboards don't allow you to have one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse with good posture, which I'm sure for the average user is a more common thing to do than entering long strings of numbers.
- Festro 4y ago
  One of my first jobs involved assessing desktop users for ergonomic posture when using video display units (PCs). I get that a big keyboard could splay your arms out a bit at angles that aren't ergonomic but practically speaking that'd have to be a very big keyboard. When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good. VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far. So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable. Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched. Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
> Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity. I think the point is that the numpad isn't free if you use the mouse with the right hand. It takes space on your desk, between the actual keyboard and the mouse. This stresses the joints a bit more. You either have to grab the mouse way out to the right, or type with your hands to the left. So if you only use the numpad "1% of your day", I'd say there are reasonable reasons, outside of vanity, for preferring a keyboard without the numpad. Sure, if you mainly use the mouse and the keyboard single-handedly (say, like a gamer would), the numpad probably doesn't bother you. I'm not particularly into "vanity shots" of my desk, but I absolutely curse the full-size keyboard whenever I have to use one.
- Festro 4y ago
  Never really noticed the extra distance but I suppose that's the point - it's all subjective experience. I'm just pointing out that smaller keyboards get the spotlight so often because they're different and not the default. They are more visually appealing for sure, but that extra attention they get doesn't mean that a full keyboard should be ignored either. The OP is asking for feedback on their product launch. For me, a full keyboard user, that was to say they should consider a full keyboard at launch cos they're super common, and often, preferred. In no way am I trying to diminish other people's preferences for smaller keyboards.

dcminter 4y ago

I've a notion that gamers like the numpad? I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I once worked for a company making keyboard training software for bank data entry staff so I still use it if I have it (having become extremely fast using it) but I can't say I miss it when it's not there and as a 99% development user I prefer and own a mechanical keyboard without it.

tiborsaas 4y ago

Entering TOTP codes, bank accounts, spreadsheeting is much more convenient on a 3x3 grid than a row of numbers. It's also nice to have a +- button in the rightmost column.

bbojan 4y ago
That's the reason why I have a numpad layer on my 46 key split ortholinear keyboard. Your use case doesn't mean you need a physically separate set of keys for this.
- tiborsaas 4y ago
  I guess we are at the opposite sides of the spectrum, I like to have a lot of buttons in front of me :) I just got this delivered: https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-keyboard-blue-switch.html https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-key...

Shorel 4y ago

At the very least, the numeric keyboard should be in the center, so the symmetry is not broken.

paledot 4y ago

I reversed the numeric row of my keyboard layout so that the symbols are typed without the shift key and the numerals use the shift key. With that arrangement, a number pad is important for any meaningful numeric input. But as a programmer, I can't stress enough how valuable it is to type symbols without constantly reaching for the shift key. "Programmer Dvorak" does this as well, but then you have to learn a new arrangement of symbols and deal with numerals that aren't in numerical order.

pmontra 4y ago
The old Italian keyboard (up to the early 80s) had shifted number over symbols. Can't remember if caps lock worked on numbers too.

pmontra 4y ago

You are not living in a bubble, you are a developer. It seems that we use the number row and people making a living with Excel use the number pad. A friend of mine confirmed that were she works everybody use the number pad except developers. She can't understand why they are doing that. I think we don't type numbers much. The times of BASIC with mandatory line numbers are very very far away. Prediction to test my theory: writers and journalists use the number row too.