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The answer to that question could fill several books. Among more recent events are the human rights violations, the increasing saber-rattling about Taiwan, the

The answer to that question could fill several books. Among more recent events are the human rights violations, the increasing saber-rattling about Taiwan, the increasing joint military exercises with Russia, and the mass addition of malware/spyware to chips meant for foreign markets. Rather than take my word for it, though, I encourage you to do some research on your own - preferably not entirely through Internet sources. In particular, the current issue of the World Affairs journal (volume 185, issue 3) has several relevant articles.

pjmlp 4y ago
"Between 2001 and 2005, CIA officers captured an estimated one hundred fifty people and transported them around the world.[12][13][14][15] Under the Bush administration, rendered persons were reported to have undergone torture by receiving countries. Journalists, civil and constitutional rights groups, and former detainees have alleged that this occurred with the knowledge or cooperation of the administrations of the United States and the United Kingdom." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20separate%20European,United%20Nations%20Convention%20Against%20Torture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:t.... "A Wedding That Became a Funeral US Drone Attack on Marriage Procession in Yemen" https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral/us-drone-attack-marriage-procession-yemen https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral... "5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff." https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ Plenty more where those came from, also enough to fill quite a few books.
- bovermyer 4y ago
  See my other comments regarding US vs China in this context.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Tell that to the countries where US wages war on.
    - bovermyer 4y ago
      You're still missing the point. This discussion is _not about the United States._ This discussion is about _China._ Let me give you a helpful link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Yeah, where patriot Americans defend US ways are alright as long it only affect foreign countries.
      - trasz 4y ago
        You can't measure something (eg a length or time) without comparing with something else, and the same way you can't claim hostility without comparing it with other states. Especially in the context where it's very obviously about China vs USA.
- aNoob7000 4y ago
  I'd take the United States versus China any day of the week. People keep making China out like they some kind of benevolent dictator. Keep in mind that all the shit talking everyone does on Hacker News and other sites is a no go in China. Ask Jack Ma about how well things go when you go against the China's CCP.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    - aNoob7000 4y ago
      - pjmlp 4y ago
    - pauldenton 4y ago
      The ones who are now stuck in Chinese Debt Traps
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Like the south American ones used as CIA testbed during the 70 and 80's, or the victims of Southeast Asia wars during Nixon days?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Randy_marsh 4y ago
  Whataboutism does not a valid argument make.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Sure it does for everyone that isn't an US citizen. Playing Yoda clever doesn't you make.
- petre 4y ago
  At least it's not institutionalized torture like in Xinjang or the concentration camps used to "re-educate" Falun Gong practitioners.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Nah, just a way to keep pentagon people and those that depend on their military contracts employeed.
  - trasz 4y ago
    >At least it's not institutionalized torture like in Xinjang https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/09/prison-punishment-violence-humiliation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/09/prison... >concentration camps used to "re-educate" Falun Gong practitioners https://uk.news.yahoo.com/survivors-troubled-teen-industry-share-115753481.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/survivors-troubled-teen-industry-s... Although tbh the American way to "re-educate" religious fundamentalists usually means executing them from a safe distance. It _appears_ that China is worse, but once you start looking at actual data instead of the rhetoric found in media, you'll quickly find that it simply doesn't check out.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
trasz 4y ago
Every single one of your points applies at least as much, if not more, to US - from human rights violations, to “saber rattling”, to spyware and backdoors. I could also add forced labor (https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...), world’s highest percentage of population in prisons, and protecting war criminals from justice (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre, where the proven murder of civilians was punished by three months in jail; but it’s a recurring motive, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes and follow the sources.) So once again, how is China hostile, while the country that’s provably worse offender isn’t? Other than racism of course.
- donedealomg 4y ago
- bovermyer 4y ago
  That may be true, but you asked "how is China hostile," not "how does China's hostility compare to the United States' hostility."
kennend3 4y ago
Others missed a few great US examples. U2/SR71 spyplanes overflying other countries. This alone is considered "an act of war". what would the US do if someone flew over their country on spy missions? Then there is the absolute rampant lying about things. U2 is shot down, US president is told that should this happen the pilot wont survive. Surprise, Gary Powers is alive and the USSR exposes the US lies to the world. "weather aircraft drifted off course" indeed. Ron Reagan and his "Evil Empire" speech. USSR shoots down a commercial flight and Ron leverages this to the max. US shoots down a commercial aircraft, refuses to accept responsibility and eventually caves under international pressure, offering peanuts in compensation? You can somewhat see what took place with the USSR's issue. The US was flying spy missions right at their doorstep. They felt this was another spy plane and shot it down. Why exactly did a US warship go into another countries waters and shoot down a commercial aircraft? The "puppet governments" and overthrowing democratically elected governments alone could fill several books. Lastly, Iran/Contra. Lets deal drugs and guns??
- bovermyer 4y ago
  Nice deflection, friend. Yes, the USA is an aggressive and imperialist power with more than a few atrocities to its name. However, this is not "how bad is China relative to the United States," but rather "how bad is China on an absolute scale."
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > how bad is China on an absolute scale that's a very odd metric, because in absolute the entire human civilization is bad right now. for itself and other living beings on the planet.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      The entire human civilization isn’t ruled by a single group/government, so it isn’t outlandish to compare different nations or nation-blocs. But you do point to an interesting problem and that is one of humans’ impact to earth (and hence our habitat). Whether humans can adjust course without a single government coming up with rules and regulations remains to be seen.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Among more recent events are the human rights violations, the increasing saber-rattling about Taiwan, the increasing joint military exercises with Russia that's not hostility towards the west, that's simply China defending their interests, which is their prerogative. Taiwan is still formally and technically part of greater China, human rights violations are not rare in (an by) the US military and non military personel, do you consider Ukrainian soldiers training in the UK [1] as the UK being hostile towards China? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/world/europe/ukraine-military-britain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/world/europe/ukraine-mili...
- andsoitis 4y ago
  How is joint military exercises with Russia not hostility to the west?
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    How is joint military exercises with Ukraine and talks about Ukraine annection to NATO not hostility towards China? we like to think that everything we do is virtuos, but it's actually not true. We defend our interests, they defend theirs.
  - trasz 4y ago
    >How is joint military exercises with Russia not hostility to the west? Fun fact: the number of American components in Russian weapons is order of magnitude higher than the number of Chinese components: https://static.rusi.org/RUSI-Silicon-Lifeline-final-updated-web_0.pdf https://static.rusi.org/RUSI-Silicon-Lifeline-final-updated-... So, I'm not sure which one is more hostile to Russia - in deeds, not words.
aydnina 4y ago
The island of Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China, and they will decide what to do with it and when. What Americans think, want or say is irrelevant.
- pauldenton 4y ago
  Do you think the US base in Okinawa is also irrelevant
- bovermyer 4y ago
  The people of Taiwan disagree with your first sentence. The United States' military presence in the region disagrees with your second sentence.
  - trasz 4y ago
    I think the majority of the western world would disagree with the first sentence, I know I would. But at the same time the people of Taiwan generally prefer things to stay as they are right now; independence with everything it involves isn't the number one option there. It's definitely _the_ main option for United States - because, as usual, the war would be waged far away from US territory, so they wouldn't suffer losses.
  - aydnina 4y ago
    Given the joke of US military whose proxies are being slaughtered in Ukraine, the bases and military presence do not mean anything. Yes, they can kill innocent civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq that's all good those morons are good for.
    - trasz 4y ago
      People slaughtered in Ukraine by Russian nazis aren't "proxies", they are civilians. To a Russian this distinction might be hard to understand, but civilised countries generally try to fight armies instead of levelling cities. Note how civilian casualties in Syria were order of magnitude higher than in Afghanistan?
dxxvi 4y ago
Not just that. China claims a large part of the international sea by drawing a bullsh*t line on the map, bullies other countries in the area: Japan, Philippine, Viet Name, Indonesia, Brunei, ...
- trasz 4y ago
  USA does the same but more, and I don't see calls to contain them.

pjmlp 4y ago

"Between 2001 and 2005, CIA officers captured an estimated one hundred fifty people and transported them around the world.[12][13][14][15] Under the Bush administration, rendered persons were reported to have undergone torture by receiving countries. Journalists, civil and constitutional rights groups, and former detainees have alleged that this occurred with the knowledge or cooperation of the administrations of the United States and the United Kingdom." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20separate%20European,United%20Nations%20Convention%20Against%20Torture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:t.... "A Wedding That Became a Funeral US Drone Attack on Marriage Procession in Yemen" https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral/us-drone-attack-marriage-procession-yemen https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral... "5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff." https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ Plenty more where those came from, also enough to fill quite a few books.

bovermyer 4y ago
See my other comments regarding US vs China in this context.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Tell that to the countries where US wages war on.
  - bovermyer 4y ago
    You're still missing the point. This discussion is _not about the United States._ This discussion is about _China._ Let me give you a helpful link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Yeah, where patriot Americans defend US ways are alright as long it only affect foreign countries.
    - trasz 4y ago
      You can't measure something (eg a length or time) without comparing with something else, and the same way you can't claim hostility without comparing it with other states. Especially in the context where it's very obviously about China vs USA.
aNoob7000 4y ago
I'd take the United States versus China any day of the week. People keep making China out like they some kind of benevolent dictator. Keep in mind that all the shit talking everyone does on Hacker News and other sites is a no go in China. Ask Jack Ma about how well things go when you go against the China's CCP.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  - aNoob7000 4y ago
    - pjmlp 4y ago
  - pauldenton 4y ago
    The ones who are now stuck in Chinese Debt Traps
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Like the south American ones used as CIA testbed during the 70 and 80's, or the victims of Southeast Asia wars during Nixon days?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Randy_marsh 4y ago
Whataboutism does not a valid argument make.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Sure it does for everyone that isn't an US citizen. Playing Yoda clever doesn't you make.
petre 4y ago
At least it's not institutionalized torture like in Xinjang or the concentration camps used to "re-educate" Falun Gong practitioners.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Nah, just a way to keep pentagon people and those that depend on their military contracts employeed.
- trasz 4y ago
  >At least it's not institutionalized torture like in Xinjang https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/09/prison-punishment-violence-humiliation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/09/prison... >concentration camps used to "re-educate" Falun Gong practitioners https://uk.news.yahoo.com/survivors-troubled-teen-industry-share-115753481.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/survivors-troubled-teen-industry-s... Although tbh the American way to "re-educate" religious fundamentalists usually means executing them from a safe distance. It _appears_ that China is worse, but once you start looking at actual data instead of the rhetoric found in media, you'll quickly find that it simply doesn't check out.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

trasz 4y ago

Every single one of your points applies at least as much, if not more, to US - from human rights violations, to “saber rattling”, to spyware and backdoors. I could also add forced labor (https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...), world’s highest percentage of population in prisons, and protecting war criminals from justice (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre, where the proven murder of civilians was punished by three months in jail; but it’s a recurring motive, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes and follow the sources.) So once again, how is China hostile, while the country that’s provably worse offender isn’t? Other than racism of course.

donedealomg 4y ago
bovermyer 4y ago
That may be true, but you asked "how is China hostile," not "how does China's hostility compare to the United States' hostility."

kennend3 4y ago

Others missed a few great US examples. U2/SR71 spyplanes overflying other countries. This alone is considered "an act of war". what would the US do if someone flew over their country on spy missions? Then there is the absolute rampant lying about things. U2 is shot down, US president is told that should this happen the pilot wont survive. Surprise, Gary Powers is alive and the USSR exposes the US lies to the world. "weather aircraft drifted off course" indeed. Ron Reagan and his "Evil Empire" speech. USSR shoots down a commercial flight and Ron leverages this to the max. US shoots down a commercial aircraft, refuses to accept responsibility and eventually caves under international pressure, offering peanuts in compensation? You can somewhat see what took place with the USSR's issue. The US was flying spy missions right at their doorstep. They felt this was another spy plane and shot it down. Why exactly did a US warship go into another countries waters and shoot down a commercial aircraft? The "puppet governments" and overthrowing democratically elected governments alone could fill several books. Lastly, Iran/Contra. Lets deal drugs and guns??

bovermyer 4y ago
Nice deflection, friend. Yes, the USA is an aggressive and imperialist power with more than a few atrocities to its name. However, this is not "how bad is China relative to the United States," but rather "how bad is China on an absolute scale."
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > how bad is China on an absolute scale that's a very odd metric, because in absolute the entire human civilization is bad right now. for itself and other living beings on the planet.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    The entire human civilization isn’t ruled by a single group/government, so it isn’t outlandish to compare different nations or nation-blocs. But you do point to an interesting problem and that is one of humans’ impact to earth (and hence our habitat). Whether humans can adjust course without a single government coming up with rules and regulations remains to be seen.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> Among more recent events are the human rights violations, the increasing saber-rattling about Taiwan, the increasing joint military exercises with Russia that's not hostility towards the west, that's simply China defending their interests, which is their prerogative. Taiwan is still formally and technically part of greater China, human rights violations are not rare in (an by) the US military and non military personel, do you consider Ukrainian soldiers training in the UK [1] as the UK being hostile towards China? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/world/europe/ukraine-military-britain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/world/europe/ukraine-mili...

andsoitis 4y ago
How is joint military exercises with Russia not hostility to the west?
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  How is joint military exercises with Ukraine and talks about Ukraine annection to NATO not hostility towards China? we like to think that everything we do is virtuos, but it's actually not true. We defend our interests, they defend theirs.
- trasz 4y ago
  >How is joint military exercises with Russia not hostility to the west? Fun fact: the number of American components in Russian weapons is order of magnitude higher than the number of Chinese components: https://static.rusi.org/RUSI-Silicon-Lifeline-final-updated-web_0.pdf https://static.rusi.org/RUSI-Silicon-Lifeline-final-updated-... So, I'm not sure which one is more hostile to Russia - in deeds, not words.

aydnina 4y ago

The island of Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China, and they will decide what to do with it and when. What Americans think, want or say is irrelevant.

pauldenton 4y ago
Do you think the US base in Okinawa is also irrelevant
bovermyer 4y ago
The people of Taiwan disagree with your first sentence. The United States' military presence in the region disagrees with your second sentence.
- trasz 4y ago
  I think the majority of the western world would disagree with the first sentence, I know I would. But at the same time the people of Taiwan generally prefer things to stay as they are right now; independence with everything it involves isn't the number one option there. It's definitely _the_ main option for United States - because, as usual, the war would be waged far away from US territory, so they wouldn't suffer losses.
- aydnina 4y ago
  Given the joke of US military whose proxies are being slaughtered in Ukraine, the bases and military presence do not mean anything. Yes, they can kill innocent civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq that's all good those morons are good for.
  - trasz 4y ago
    People slaughtered in Ukraine by Russian nazis aren't "proxies", they are civilians. To a Russian this distinction might be hard to understand, but civilised countries generally try to fight armies instead of levelling cities. Note how civilian casualties in Syria were order of magnitude higher than in Afghanistan?

dxxvi 4y ago

Not just that. China claims a large part of the international sea by drawing a bullsh*t line on the map, bullies other countries in the area: Japan, Philippine, Viet Name, Indonesia, Brunei, ...

trasz 4y ago
USA does the same but more, and I don't see calls to contain them.