5 ms·

Looks really nice BUT: There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Min

by Festro 4y ago

Looks really nice BUT: There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Minimal keyboards are for minimalists, and people who like to show of their setups. Just like desktop vanity posts typically have speakers, yet everyone uses headphones. Anecdotally there was a post recently on some PC subreddit asking what keyboard people preferred, and the overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards. Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad. So, make a full version? People might think they're a bit ugly, but they're popular despite people being less willing to show off a massive keyboard. You're right about the damn 'gamer' look though. The only good thing about the gamer look is that I will trust it has decent switches in it.

jacknews 4y ago
I disagree, I've been using laptop, or tenkeyless, or currently a 65-key optical mechanical keyboard, for forever. I almost never use the numpad, or pgup/home etc keys (vim user), and rarely function keys, so they just get in the way. Keyboards are quite a personal thing, I think there's room for many different designs.
- Festro 4y ago
  That's my whole point? Add another design, because it's personal, and just the vocal minority that show off their sleek minimalist tenkeyless keyboards. I wouldn't suggest adding too many designs at launch though, that's obviously unsustainable. But eventually sure. I'd just start with a minimal and a 100%. To cover the core bases.
  - jacknews 4y ago
    I don't know, if you're going to start a new product company with a 'mission', it's not a bad debut to offer just a single product that embodies that mission. This keyboard definitely has it's own style. I'm not sure I agree with it all, actually I don't, but it seems to know what it wants to be.
bodge5000 4y ago
Funnily enough the only people I've seen using a fullsize keyboard for work are those using the company provided ones. Anyone who had their own had a TKL, or smaller. I own a fullsize mechanical keyboard which I (used to) use for my personal computer, but for work I use a TKL. The only reason I have even had a fullsize at home was for Blender
goosedragons 4y ago
Eh disagree. The most I have probably used a number pad is for playing Alpha Centauri. It's pretty unnecessary IMO unless all you do is a lot of data entry which is probably a minority of jobs. I don't like the extra effort of moving off home row to hit the number pad. Only recently with my Kinesis Advantage have I really started to use it and that doesn't have a real numpad at all.
tauntz 4y ago
> Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad. I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)? From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble? (I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)
- Festro 4y ago
  I do technical marketing (SEO, ads, analytics) and if I am ever in a spreadsheet I gravitate to the numpad for any numerical data entry. It's like touch-typing, superior way of doing it once you've learnt. No need to use shift for simple calculations, one-handed number typing, using my left hand to tab into the next cell, etc. Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly. WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
  - reflexco 4y ago
    Ergonomics is not vanity. Most 100% keyboards don't allow you to have one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse with good posture, which I'm sure for the average user is a more common thing to do than entering long strings of numbers.
    - Festro 4y ago
      One of my first jobs involved assessing desktop users for ergonomic posture when using video display units (PCs). I get that a big keyboard could splay your arms out a bit at angles that aren't ergonomic but practically speaking that'd have to be a very big keyboard. When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good. VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far. So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable. Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched. Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
notimpotent 4y ago
Agree 100%. I actually tried to go without a numpad on a new keyboard. Couldn't make it a week before I returned it. Up to that point I didn't realize how much I used it on a daily basis. I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Reminds me of my dad hunting and pecking with his index finger.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Why? I don't use the number keys that often for programming. Hell, my main job is more on the sysadmin side of things, so I'd expect to type numbers more frequently than a standard programmer (think IPs and such), yet I still don't miss the numpad, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make lose any noticeable amout of time.
gwd 4y ago
> There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. I've been using the HHKB for over a year now as my "daily driver" and I absolutely love it: * I like the feeling of the keys, and also the compactness of the keyboard layout * I like that it connects to both my work & personal laptops over bluetooth, and I can switch between them with a single key chord * I like that I can carry the keyboard with me to the office, and that it was simple for me to take it with me on my recent trip to Australia, so I have my preferred keyboard feeling / layout wherever I go. Before that I was using a Unicomp Model M as my "daily driver", and while I liked it, I don't really miss the extra keys.
- Festro 4y ago
  I'm happy for you? Please don't think I was saying that nobody wants a small keyboard at home. I'm just saying that small keyboards get more attention because they look sleeker, and since they're a step from the default it catches people's attention more. The vanity pic of a home desktop setup is one thing, what people use at home is another. That first context is dominated by small keyboards because it looks good for the pic. The second context is more about function, and whilst numpads are better for function I'm not going as far to say that they dominate - I don't know. I'm just asking the OP to consider covering both options, as someone who prefers a numpad for its extra functionality. I'm not saying they should ditch the small model - I think it is great.
Shorel 4y ago
I would like a full keyboard that has the numeric keyboard on the left side. That way, my mouse would be closer to the action. I have no idea why this is not a common option. I use the numeric keyboard only for a couple of games that use it to control the camera, and that's pretty much it. Otherwise, the numeric keyboard just uses desktop space and causes my mouse to be further away from my hand, when typing.
- Festro 4y ago
  This sounds smart. Even a modular one where you can relocate it could be interesting. I don't notice the extra distance, but I think that's more to do with my desks being wide enough for it to not come up. Or maybe cos I'm lanky! I'd definitely try out a left hand numpad given the option.
layer8 4y ago
It would be nice if there was a standard for snap-on numpads, or even the cursor-plus-six-key-block-column, to be connected to either side of a keyboard.
glxxyz 4y ago
I switched to keyboards without number pads about 20 years ago, when I realised that I had never used them and they were in the way of where the mouse should be. I've been able to touch-type numbers since I was in school, and I've never had to enter a long enough list of numbers that switching to the number pad was necessary.
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
> "There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver." I see people use Mac and Windows laptop keyboards in professional capacity day in and day out without difficulty. Aside from that, separate USB numeric keypads are still available for those who really feel the need. Frankly, I can't even recall anytime in the last decade I touched the numeric keypad even in environments where I had a 100% keyboard.
reaperducer 4y ago
overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards From your mouth to God's ear. Love my MacBook, but for my purposes (writing code commercially for 30+ years), the bigger the keyboard, the better. Especially once it's fully configured with macros. If the keyboard enthusiast community ever brings back reasonably-priced keyboard with the second row of function keys that are easily programmable, I'll buy one. 3270's were awesome.
WhyNotHugo 4y ago
IMHO, the numeric keyboard is bad for ergonomics because I have to move the mouse to the far right, at a very uncomfortable angle. And I already have numbers close to the home row anyway. I guess for data entry or numeric-intense jobs it does make sense, but not for the rest of us.
tomtheelder 4y ago
I've done product research on this when I was considering doing a project like this keyboard, and the results were very conclusive: 100% keyboards are pretty niche. The audience for that project, like this one, was basically high end consumers. The majority of respondents used a laptop keyboard most of the time. For those who had an external keyboard, 100% was behind 60%, 65%, and TKL. A very large portion of those who said they had a 100% noted that they don't use their numpad in a followup question. Obviously my sample probably had some biases toward keyboard enthusiasts, but that's the target audience for this sort of thing! If you went true general public I think you'd find that an overwhelming majority just use a laptop keyboard, or whatever their company gave them without caring about layout. My take? 100%s are absolutely crucial for a very small slice of people. They are made to seem more popular than they are because they are the "safest" layout. Someone who needs a 100% can't use a 60%. Someone who prefers 60% can totally use a 100%. So companies make/give out 100%s, and they end up getting used a lot because of that.
HEI-Points 4y ago
I'm full time remote and I use my 35% (or whatever) minimal keyboard every day. I can throw it in my bag, go around the house, neighborhood, world and have a decent set of keys. Not like there aren't a lot of "Instagram keyboards" out there but a smaller keyboard leaves more room on the desk for snacks.
fomine3 4y ago
Mostly agree (I don't like reducing keys movement like 50% keyboard) but a counterpoint: I never want a tenkey on the right of the keyboard. It makes my mouse (trackball) located far away. Even if I need to type much numbers, I'll put dedicated tenkey on the left of the keyboard (or the center of the split keyboard). For who really want a tenkey, I wonder what's wrong with dedicated USB tenkey.

by Festro 4y ago

jacknews 4y ago

I disagree, I've been using laptop, or tenkeyless, or currently a 65-key optical mechanical keyboard, for forever. I almost never use the numpad, or pgup/home etc keys (vim user), and rarely function keys, so they just get in the way. Keyboards are quite a personal thing, I think there's room for many different designs.

Festro 4y ago
That's my whole point? Add another design, because it's personal, and just the vocal minority that show off their sleek minimalist tenkeyless keyboards. I wouldn't suggest adding too many designs at launch though, that's obviously unsustainable. But eventually sure. I'd just start with a minimal and a 100%. To cover the core bases.
- jacknews 4y ago
  I don't know, if you're going to start a new product company with a 'mission', it's not a bad debut to offer just a single product that embodies that mission. This keyboard definitely has it's own style. I'm not sure I agree with it all, actually I don't, but it seems to know what it wants to be.

bodge5000 4y ago

Funnily enough the only people I've seen using a fullsize keyboard for work are those using the company provided ones. Anyone who had their own had a TKL, or smaller. I own a fullsize mechanical keyboard which I (used to) use for my personal computer, but for work I use a TKL. The only reason I have even had a fullsize at home was for Blender

goosedragons 4y ago

Eh disagree. The most I have probably used a number pad is for playing Alpha Centauri. It's pretty unnecessary IMO unless all you do is a lot of data entry which is probably a minority of jobs. I don't like the extra effort of moving off home row to hit the number pad. Only recently with my Kinesis Advantage have I really started to use it and that doesn't have a real numpad at all.

tauntz 4y ago

> Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad. I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)? From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble? (I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)

Festro 4y ago
I do technical marketing (SEO, ads, analytics) and if I am ever in a spreadsheet I gravitate to the numpad for any numerical data entry. It's like touch-typing, superior way of doing it once you've learnt. No need to use shift for simple calculations, one-handed number typing, using my left hand to tab into the next cell, etc. Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly. WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
- reflexco 4y ago
  Ergonomics is not vanity. Most 100% keyboards don't allow you to have one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse with good posture, which I'm sure for the average user is a more common thing to do than entering long strings of numbers.
  - Festro 4y ago
    One of my first jobs involved assessing desktop users for ergonomic posture when using video display units (PCs). I get that a big keyboard could splay your arms out a bit at angles that aren't ergonomic but practically speaking that'd have to be a very big keyboard. When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good. VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far. So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable. Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched. Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.

notimpotent 4y ago

Agree 100%. I actually tried to go without a numpad on a new keyboard. Couldn't make it a week before I returned it. Up to that point I didn't realize how much I used it on a daily basis. I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Reminds me of my dad hunting and pecking with his index finger.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
> I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Why? I don't use the number keys that often for programming. Hell, my main job is more on the sysadmin side of things, so I'd expect to type numbers more frequently than a standard programmer (think IPs and such), yet I still don't miss the numpad, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make lose any noticeable amout of time.

gwd 4y ago

> There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. I've been using the HHKB for over a year now as my "daily driver" and I absolutely love it: * I like the feeling of the keys, and also the compactness of the keyboard layout * I like that it connects to both my work & personal laptops over bluetooth, and I can switch between them with a single key chord * I like that I can carry the keyboard with me to the office, and that it was simple for me to take it with me on my recent trip to Australia, so I have my preferred keyboard feeling / layout wherever I go. Before that I was using a Unicomp Model M as my "daily driver", and while I liked it, I don't really miss the extra keys.

Festro 4y ago
I'm happy for you? Please don't think I was saying that nobody wants a small keyboard at home. I'm just saying that small keyboards get more attention because they look sleeker, and since they're a step from the default it catches people's attention more. The vanity pic of a home desktop setup is one thing, what people use at home is another. That first context is dominated by small keyboards because it looks good for the pic. The second context is more about function, and whilst numpads are better for function I'm not going as far to say that they dominate - I don't know. I'm just asking the OP to consider covering both options, as someone who prefers a numpad for its extra functionality. I'm not saying they should ditch the small model - I think it is great.

Shorel 4y ago

I would like a full keyboard that has the numeric keyboard on the left side. That way, my mouse would be closer to the action. I have no idea why this is not a common option. I use the numeric keyboard only for a couple of games that use it to control the camera, and that's pretty much it. Otherwise, the numeric keyboard just uses desktop space and causes my mouse to be further away from my hand, when typing.

Festro 4y ago
This sounds smart. Even a modular one where you can relocate it could be interesting. I don't notice the extra distance, but I think that's more to do with my desks being wide enough for it to not come up. Or maybe cos I'm lanky! I'd definitely try out a left hand numpad given the option.

layer8 4y ago

It would be nice if there was a standard for snap-on numpads, or even the cursor-plus-six-key-block-column, to be connected to either side of a keyboard.

glxxyz 4y ago

I switched to keyboards without number pads about 20 years ago, when I realised that I had never used them and they were in the way of where the mouse should be. I've been able to touch-type numbers since I was in school, and I've never had to enter a long enough list of numbers that switching to the number pad was necessary.

ThrowawayR2 4y ago

> "There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver." I see people use Mac and Windows laptop keyboards in professional capacity day in and day out without difficulty. Aside from that, separate USB numeric keypads are still available for those who really feel the need. Frankly, I can't even recall anytime in the last decade I touched the numeric keypad even in environments where I had a 100% keyboard.

reaperducer 4y ago

overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards From your mouth to God's ear. Love my MacBook, but for my purposes (writing code commercially for 30+ years), the bigger the keyboard, the better. Especially once it's fully configured with macros. If the keyboard enthusiast community ever brings back reasonably-priced keyboard with the second row of function keys that are easily programmable, I'll buy one. 3270's were awesome.

WhyNotHugo 4y ago

IMHO, the numeric keyboard is bad for ergonomics because I have to move the mouse to the far right, at a very uncomfortable angle. And I already have numbers close to the home row anyway. I guess for data entry or numeric-intense jobs it does make sense, but not for the rest of us.

tomtheelder 4y ago

I've done product research on this when I was considering doing a project like this keyboard, and the results were very conclusive: 100% keyboards are pretty niche. The audience for that project, like this one, was basically high end consumers. The majority of respondents used a laptop keyboard most of the time. For those who had an external keyboard, 100% was behind 60%, 65%, and TKL. A very large portion of those who said they had a 100% noted that they don't use their numpad in a followup question. Obviously my sample probably had some biases toward keyboard enthusiasts, but that's the target audience for this sort of thing! If you went true general public I think you'd find that an overwhelming majority just use a laptop keyboard, or whatever their company gave them without caring about layout. My take? 100%s are absolutely crucial for a very small slice of people. They are made to seem more popular than they are because they are the "safest" layout. Someone who needs a 100% can't use a 60%. Someone who prefers 60% can totally use a 100%. So companies make/give out 100%s, and they end up getting used a lot because of that.

HEI-Points 4y ago

I'm full time remote and I use my 35% (or whatever) minimal keyboard every day. I can throw it in my bag, go around the house, neighborhood, world and have a decent set of keys. Not like there aren't a lot of "Instagram keyboards" out there but a smaller keyboard leaves more room on the desk for snacks.

fomine3 4y ago

Mostly agree (I don't like reducing keys movement like 50% keyboard) but a counterpoint: I never want a tenkey on the right of the keyboard. It makes my mouse (trackball) located far away. Even if I need to type much numbers, I'll put dedicated tenkey on the left of the keyboard (or the center of the split keyboard). For who really want a tenkey, I wonder what's wrong with dedicated USB tenkey.