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I personally didn't use Guix or interacted with its community in any way. But if GP is right about their attitude, it saddens me. Can't there be a middle grou

by k__ 4y ago

I personally didn't use Guix or interacted with its community in any way. But if GP is right about their attitude, it saddens me. Can't there be a middle ground? Like, promoting free software and still helping people getting things done in the world we live right now?

rekado 4y ago
No, they are not right about the attitude. We just don't do proprietary software and so discussing it on our channels is off topic and distracting. "Go fuck yourself" is much stronger, much ruder attitude. On the #guix IRC channel you'll often get a private message to direct you to other channels where it's fine to discuss proprietary software and how to make it work on Guix.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  I'm not attempting to construe that the attitude is GFY. From the perspective of someone who is enjoying this tool and ecosystem and wants to do something, but the community is trying very hard to enforce beliefs that are incompatible, it sure tastes like I'm being told to go fuck myself. Does it feel good to you when you ask a question and the reply you get is "this isn't for you"? Requiring a private reply on an IRC server to unblock a comically common use case is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight.
  - rekado 4y ago
    "enforce beliefs"? No. Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. You don't have to belief anything to use Guix or participate in the community. It's an odd sense of entitlement to demand that others accept, accommodate, and welcome your ideology in dealings with you. I also find it strange that you ascribe "this isn't for you" (a comment made here by strangers) to the project. No wonder then that you interpret entirely harmless community guidelines as if someone told you "to go fuck [your]self".
    - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
      > Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. Yes, and I believe that this attitude harms community building, education and adoption efforts. You specifically use the words "not welcome". Other, more welcoming projects typically don't use such language outside of a Code of Conduct policy document. I'm pointing out that I've been made to feel unwelcome and you're saying that is entirely harmless. Do you see the problem?
      - rekado 4y ago
        I don't think we're coming to an understanding. You're (inadvertently?) twisting the phrase "not welcome", which I apply to behavior, to make it apply to people. If we can't agree on how to apply words we cannot use them to approach understanding.
dannyobrien 4y ago
I am in the Guix channels, and they have fairly good discipline for not being rude or dismissive. It's not perfect, but the project's core contributors are sincere about setting a good example, and trying to make the culture welcoming. Rules about gently directing folks to nonguix ( https://www.google.com/search?q=nonguix https://www.google.com/search?q=nonguix ) resources are there, and people do try to be non-confrontational about it. It's a pretty businesslike vibe though. i think ideally user groups like System Crafters might be a better introduction for those not steeped in GNU culture: https://systemcrafters.cc/ https://systemcrafters.cc/

by k__ 4y ago

rekado 4y ago

No, they are not right about the attitude. We just don't do proprietary software and so discussing it on our channels is off topic and distracting. "Go fuck yourself" is much stronger, much ruder attitude. On the #guix IRC channel you'll often get a private message to direct you to other channels where it's fine to discuss proprietary software and how to make it work on Guix.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
I'm not attempting to construe that the attitude is GFY. From the perspective of someone who is enjoying this tool and ecosystem and wants to do something, but the community is trying very hard to enforce beliefs that are incompatible, it sure tastes like I'm being told to go fuck myself. Does it feel good to you when you ask a question and the reply you get is "this isn't for you"? Requiring a private reply on an IRC server to unblock a comically common use case is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight.
- rekado 4y ago
  "enforce beliefs"? No. Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. You don't have to belief anything to use Guix or participate in the community. It's an odd sense of entitlement to demand that others accept, accommodate, and welcome your ideology in dealings with you. I also find it strange that you ascribe "this isn't for you" (a comment made here by strangers) to the project. No wonder then that you interpret entirely harmless community guidelines as if someone told you "to go fuck [your]self".
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    > Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. Yes, and I believe that this attitude harms community building, education and adoption efforts. You specifically use the words "not welcome". Other, more welcoming projects typically don't use such language outside of a Code of Conduct policy document. I'm pointing out that I've been made to feel unwelcome and you're saying that is entirely harmless. Do you see the problem?
    - rekado 4y ago
      I don't think we're coming to an understanding. You're (inadvertently?) twisting the phrase "not welcome", which I apply to behavior, to make it apply to people. If we can't agree on how to apply words we cannot use them to approach understanding.

dannyobrien 4y ago

I am in the Guix channels, and they have fairly good discipline for not being rude or dismissive. It's not perfect, but the project's core contributors are sincere about setting a good example, and trying to make the culture welcoming. Rules about gently directing folks to nonguix ( https://www.google.com/search?q=nonguix https://www.google.com/search?q=nonguix ) resources are there, and people do try to be non-confrontational about it. It's a pretty businesslike vibe though. i think ideally user groups like System Crafters might be a better introduction for those not steeped in GNU culture: https://systemcrafters.cc/ https://systemcrafters.cc/