3 ms·

Have you considered the idea that it might just not be for you? There are plenty of workflows that don't require proprietary software, and adding proprietary so

by caslon 4y ago

Have you considered the idea that it might just not be for you? There are plenty of workflows that don't require proprietary software, and adding proprietary software breaks a lot of the point of Guix, along with throwing more work onto the backs of maintainers. You wouldn't expect a bunch of people giving away a vegetarian cookbook to respond super well to, "This is all fine and great and all, but how can I adapt this recipe to grilled dog?" Especially not after saying their project was pointless since you couldn't easily use it to shish kebab your cat.

ivalm 4y ago
> but how can I adapt this recipe to grilled dog > couldn't easily use it to shish kebab your cat This seems like an unnecessarily hostile response, kind of inline with what the OP mentioned.
- caslon 4y ago
  It's not particularly hostile. It's using an example to demonstrate that someone who sees an action as unethical won't be super hyped about you asking them to spend their time assisting you in doing something they find to be unethical, especially after you insult them for thinking it's unethical.
xhevahir 4y ago
To continue with your analogy: this sounds more like instructing other vegetarians to refuse to help any meat eaters who would like to alter a vegetarian recipe.
- caslon 4y ago
  It's more like saying "Not in my house, thanks." Which is totally sensible!
xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
Who is it for then? Everyone on the planet I have ever interacted with uses proprietary software daily. What are these mythical workflows? Am I only supposed to use Guix when it's convenient for their philosophy? nonguix is proof that adding proprietary software doesn't break diddly squat. It's all just gatekeeping. They could still achieve all their goals without being zealous, whether you believe me or not.
- rekado 4y ago
  I really can't understand your attitude here. Guix makes it trivial to add other channels, such as nonguix, providing first-class packages. You can easily add proprietary software to Guix. It's just not part of Guix, because that's not the point of the project. Your "non-mythical" workflows that depend on proprietary workflows are not in any way impeded. You are projecting zealotry and gatekeeping (both terms with strong negative connotation) onto the project. And I must say that your attitude does nothing to advance your point, however deeply buried in hostile rhetoric it may be. As to mythical workflows without proprietary software: I'm not using proprietary software. Not on my laptops, my home network, my servers at work. Not because I'm some sort of "zealot", but because I simply have no need for it. It's really quite odd to observe how worked up you get in response to seeing a community that is content with not using proprietary software.
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    My point is that Guix, the software, the documentation and the community are not user friendly. I'm happy that you have no need for proprietary software, that sounds nice. I do have such a need. It took me a stunning amount of time to find nonguix and figure it out. The community was not helpful. Figuring out how to use proprietary software with Guix is a miserable experience. As a new, curious user, I was told: I won't receive help, I can't discuss it, I shouldn't use proprietary software, that Guix isn't for me. This is not a welcoming response. It's not useful. It's hostile. It's zealotry. Instead, a welcoming response would be to say yeah, that's unfortunate but understandable, maybe help educate why free software is important, and suggest a path forward, such as pointing the user to unofficial channels. By comparison, Nix excels here -- There is no hostility. It's like being told by a mathematician that I shouldn't use math to calculate my taxes because taxes are unethical and illegal. Yeah that's nice, but I still have to pay them. I just want to calculate my taxes.

by caslon 4y ago

ivalm 4y ago

> but how can I adapt this recipe to grilled dog > couldn't easily use it to shish kebab your cat This seems like an unnecessarily hostile response, kind of inline with what the OP mentioned.

caslon 4y ago
It's not particularly hostile. It's using an example to demonstrate that someone who sees an action as unethical won't be super hyped about you asking them to spend their time assisting you in doing something they find to be unethical, especially after you insult them for thinking it's unethical.

xhevahir 4y ago

To continue with your analogy: this sounds more like instructing other vegetarians to refuse to help any meat eaters who would like to alter a vegetarian recipe.

caslon 4y ago
It's more like saying "Not in my house, thanks." Which is totally sensible!

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago

Who is it for then? Everyone on the planet I have ever interacted with uses proprietary software daily. What are these mythical workflows? Am I only supposed to use Guix when it's convenient for their philosophy? nonguix is proof that adding proprietary software doesn't break diddly squat. It's all just gatekeeping. They could still achieve all their goals without being zealous, whether you believe me or not.

rekado 4y ago
I really can't understand your attitude here. Guix makes it trivial to add other channels, such as nonguix, providing first-class packages. You can easily add proprietary software to Guix. It's just not part of Guix, because that's not the point of the project. Your "non-mythical" workflows that depend on proprietary workflows are not in any way impeded. You are projecting zealotry and gatekeeping (both terms with strong negative connotation) onto the project. And I must say that your attitude does nothing to advance your point, however deeply buried in hostile rhetoric it may be. As to mythical workflows without proprietary software: I'm not using proprietary software. Not on my laptops, my home network, my servers at work. Not because I'm some sort of "zealot", but because I simply have no need for it. It's really quite odd to observe how worked up you get in response to seeing a community that is content with not using proprietary software.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  My point is that Guix, the software, the documentation and the community are not user friendly. I'm happy that you have no need for proprietary software, that sounds nice. I do have such a need. It took me a stunning amount of time to find nonguix and figure it out. The community was not helpful. Figuring out how to use proprietary software with Guix is a miserable experience. As a new, curious user, I was told: I won't receive help, I can't discuss it, I shouldn't use proprietary software, that Guix isn't for me. This is not a welcoming response. It's not useful. It's hostile. It's zealotry. Instead, a welcoming response would be to say yeah, that's unfortunate but understandable, maybe help educate why free software is important, and suggest a path forward, such as pointing the user to unofficial channels. By comparison, Nix excels here -- There is no hostility. It's like being told by a mathematician that I shouldn't use math to calculate my taxes because taxes are unethical and illegal. Yeah that's nice, but I still have to pay them. I just want to calculate my taxes.