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Central installations are perfect for the current incentives: they use the same amount of T&D, for which utilities can always charge their profit margin, as lon

Central installations are perfect for the current incentives: they use the same amount of T&D, for which utilities can always charge their profit margin, as long as they can convince regulators that the expenditure is justified. Behind the meter storage is a fundamentally different beast, because it has the potential to drastically reduce T&D costs, which are the vast majority of bills (at least mine under PG&E). Christopher Clack has some great economic modeling of the grid at a very fine level, showing that deploying a bunch of storage and solar at the grid edge right now will greatly reduce costs and enable far more utility scale installs in the future, because the local storage and solar reduces the need for T&D peaks. This sort of cost optimization is not incentivized but anyone in the current setup, and is impossible to achieve without direct regulation to change incentives for utilities.

jeffbee 4y ago
I don't disagree with any particulars of your analysis except one omission: powerwalls compete with electric cars for relatively scarce high-tech batteries. It is globally optimal for the time being for those batteries to all be used to electrify transportation, while utility power can be enhanced with large, fixed installations using whatever kind of battery they can get. Lead-acid or anything else, it doesn't really matter. But nobody is selling turn-key residential power packs using anything but lithium-ion batteries.
- rudolph9 4y ago
  I thought a lot of these were recycled from vehicles when their energy density doesn’t meet the needs of a vehicle anymore but make sense in a house since the house doesn’t move?
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Note this same argument is used against EVs. Saying the batteries should be used for hybrids instead. In both cases, the fundamental mistake is to think of these as costs, when they are investments with rapid paybacks and so the obvious answer (and the reality) is massive expansion of battery manufacturing capacity.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    The hybrid thing is true though. With the same number of batteries you can cut carbon emissions from cars by either 50% with hybrids or 2% with electrics. It makes perfect sense as the thing to do now with the capacity we actually have.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      No it doesn't. The thing to do now, is increase our battery capacity.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Not all parts of the energy grid are as “clean” as a gas cars’ ICE unfortunately. You’re better off driving an ICE in those regions than charging an EV. Globally we’re better off creating a sustainable carbon-free grid in regions with poor grid generation first. In California, where this applies, the grid is very clean, so yes the dirties/most polluting part of the system is probably the cars.

jeffbee 4y ago

I don't disagree with any particulars of your analysis except one omission: powerwalls compete with electric cars for relatively scarce high-tech batteries. It is globally optimal for the time being for those batteries to all be used to electrify transportation, while utility power can be enhanced with large, fixed installations using whatever kind of battery they can get. Lead-acid or anything else, it doesn't really matter. But nobody is selling turn-key residential power packs using anything but lithium-ion batteries.

rudolph9 4y ago
I thought a lot of these were recycled from vehicles when their energy density doesn’t meet the needs of a vehicle anymore but make sense in a house since the house doesn’t move?
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Note this same argument is used against EVs. Saying the batteries should be used for hybrids instead. In both cases, the fundamental mistake is to think of these as costs, when they are investments with rapid paybacks and so the obvious answer (and the reality) is massive expansion of battery manufacturing capacity.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  The hybrid thing is true though. With the same number of batteries you can cut carbon emissions from cars by either 50% with hybrids or 2% with electrics. It makes perfect sense as the thing to do now with the capacity we actually have.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    No it doesn't. The thing to do now, is increase our battery capacity.
vineyardmike 4y ago
Not all parts of the energy grid are as “clean” as a gas cars’ ICE unfortunately. You’re better off driving an ICE in those regions than charging an EV. Globally we’re better off creating a sustainable carbon-free grid in regions with poor grid generation first. In California, where this applies, the grid is very clean, so yes the dirties/most polluting part of the system is probably the cars.