5 ms·

Designing their own chips in-house wasn't "their expertise" either, a few years ago. You won't expand into other areas unless you at least make it a priority an

by cronix 4y ago

Designing their own chips in-house wasn't "their expertise" either, a few years ago. You won't expand into other areas unless you at least make it a priority and try.

skohan 4y ago
Getting into semiconductors is probably substantially more complicated. Only a handful of companies are able to do it well and they have bene at it for decades.
- Covzire 4y ago
  "at least it's not chip fabrication" is the new "hey at least it's not rocket science".
- littlecranky67 4y ago
  Such as creating a general purpose CPU that could compete with Intel/AMD performance-wise?
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Apple does have more resources to throw at this problem than anyone. Considering that their entire product line collapses without semiconductors, it wouldn’t be a poor investment.
smoldesu 4y ago
I think a few years ago there were rumblings about a 2/3nm Apple fab being made in Berlin, but I've heard nothing about it since, so it may be a lie. That being said; the other commenter is right. If Apple had to release the M1 on 10nm or even 7nm, they would end up sacrificing at least >200% performance-per-watt; a death blow to either the battery life or performance. Apple's move to dominate the 5nm supply was another demonstration of their manipulation of supply chains akin to their iPod hard drives. There are indeed interesting parts of Apple Silicon, but the performance is driven wholly by their exclusive 5nm ARM cores.
- philistine 4y ago
  It is getting tiring to hear the same lies over and over again on this site. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Show me a clear proof that Apple's performance per watt is reliant to a 200% improvement on the 5nm process. Perhaps I can point you in the direction of the A13 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13), Apple's last 7nm chip. Apple claims their subsequent 5nm node (A14) is 40% more performant than that one.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    7nm is considerably less dense than 5nm, since it's increased size compounds across two dimensions. That being said, A13 was indeed on 7nm, as well as the A14x they put in the dev kit. I don't think those benchmark numbers would be competitive against 3D Cache Ryzen or current Alder Lake offerings. Furthermore, I question how far Apple will be able to push Apple Silicon. As we've seen with the M2, when Apple can't get a clean node upgrade, they're forced to increase heat/power like Intel and AMD so they can scale their performance. With the upgrade to 3nm being much less dramatic than 10nm -> 5nm (and with Intel catching up rapidly), Apple is under extreme pressure to engineer themselves out of this situation. It may not be technically feasible.
    - philistine 4y ago
      You have in no shape or form supported your claim that Apple gained 200% in performance per watt due solely to the 5nm process.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Here, then: Developer transition kit, running A12z, 7nm: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=eperm-d995af6e2ef02771 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=eperm-d995af6e... Last-gen Mac Mini, running i7-8700B, 14nm: https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2018 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2018 So, let's do some quick math. Assuming the A12z runs in the same power envelope as the M1, it uses roughly half the power of the preceding Intel chip. That makes sense, since both the performance and efficiency cores are using a much denser process. Generously speaking, both of these chips have a similar performance profile, which leads me to believe that Apple's real 'boon' here was simply switching to a denser node. Comparing IPC across ISAs is largely guesswork, but I'm not convinced that AMD or Intel are incapable of manufacturing 5nm chips that decimate Apple's offerings. Apple hasn't allowed it to happen, so we can't say for sure.
musicale 4y ago
Acquiring PA Semi helped, but they were a fabless semiconductor startup, though with an experienced engineering team. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

by cronix 4y ago

Designing their own chips in-house wasn't "their expertise" either, a few years ago. You won't expand into other areas unless you at least make it a priority and try.

skohan 4y ago

Getting into semiconductors is probably substantially more complicated. Only a handful of companies are able to do it well and they have bene at it for decades.

Covzire 4y ago
"at least it's not chip fabrication" is the new "hey at least it's not rocket science".
littlecranky67 4y ago
Such as creating a general purpose CPU that could compete with Intel/AMD performance-wise?
spaceman_2020 4y ago
Apple does have more resources to throw at this problem than anyone. Considering that their entire product line collapses without semiconductors, it wouldn’t be a poor investment.

smoldesu 4y ago

I think a few years ago there were rumblings about a 2/3nm Apple fab being made in Berlin, but I've heard nothing about it since, so it may be a lie. That being said; the other commenter is right. If Apple had to release the M1 on 10nm or even 7nm, they would end up sacrificing at least >200% performance-per-watt; a death blow to either the battery life or performance. Apple's move to dominate the 5nm supply was another demonstration of their manipulation of supply chains akin to their iPod hard drives. There are indeed interesting parts of Apple Silicon, but the performance is driven wholly by their exclusive 5nm ARM cores.

philistine 4y ago
It is getting tiring to hear the same lies over and over again on this site. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Show me a clear proof that Apple's performance per watt is reliant to a 200% improvement on the 5nm process. Perhaps I can point you in the direction of the A13 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13), Apple's last 7nm chip. Apple claims their subsequent 5nm node (A14) is 40% more performant than that one.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  7nm is considerably less dense than 5nm, since it's increased size compounds across two dimensions. That being said, A13 was indeed on 7nm, as well as the A14x they put in the dev kit. I don't think those benchmark numbers would be competitive against 3D Cache Ryzen or current Alder Lake offerings. Furthermore, I question how far Apple will be able to push Apple Silicon. As we've seen with the M2, when Apple can't get a clean node upgrade, they're forced to increase heat/power like Intel and AMD so they can scale their performance. With the upgrade to 3nm being much less dramatic than 10nm -> 5nm (and with Intel catching up rapidly), Apple is under extreme pressure to engineer themselves out of this situation. It may not be technically feasible.
  - philistine 4y ago
    You have in no shape or form supported your claim that Apple gained 200% in performance per watt due solely to the 5nm process.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Here, then: Developer transition kit, running A12z, 7nm: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=eperm-d995af6e2ef02771 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=eperm-d995af6e... Last-gen Mac Mini, running i7-8700B, 14nm: https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2018 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac-mini-late-2018 So, let's do some quick math. Assuming the A12z runs in the same power envelope as the M1, it uses roughly half the power of the preceding Intel chip. That makes sense, since both the performance and efficiency cores are using a much denser process. Generously speaking, both of these chips have a similar performance profile, which leads me to believe that Apple's real 'boon' here was simply switching to a denser node. Comparing IPC across ISAs is largely guesswork, but I'm not convinced that AMD or Intel are incapable of manufacturing 5nm chips that decimate Apple's offerings. Apple hasn't allowed it to happen, so we can't say for sure.

musicale 4y ago

Acquiring PA Semi helped, but they were a fabless semiconductor startup, though with an experienced engineering team. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi