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No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can ch

by mcv 4y ago

No one can drain ky bank account through my payment card either. For one, they lack the authorisation to do so, and for another, there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day.

happyopossum 4y ago
> they lack the authorisation to do so How does the German banking system prevent an unscrupulous online retailer from charging you 500€ for a 50€ item? Or charging you twice?
- 6510 4y ago
  In the Netherlands the customer picks theirs from a list of banks on the iDEAL website then the transaction is done on their banks website. Other services can be fit in front to extend the choices with other payment processors. shop [> mollie] > iDEAL > ABN > shop or (pc) shop QR > (phone) photo app > iDEAL > ABN
- Jensson 4y ago
  2FA, you get a popup in your bank app asking "Do you want to pay X euro to Y?" for online payments. Can turn that off if you want, but it isn't a big bother.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    It also only happens for higher-value transactions here. I don't have to authorize every tenner unless it's the 10th in a row or something
  - lxgr 4y ago
    That‘s not how direct debit works. There is no accountholder involvement with processing direct debits, but they can be easily reversed (although after the fact). There are related payment schemes though that do initiate a push payment (i.e. SEPA credit transfer), giving the accountholder control over the amount and payee, but they are not yet as ubiquitous or usable internationally.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      That is exactly how my debit card transactions works. When I buy a game on steam using my debit card I get a popup in my phone asking if I really initiated the payment and lets me decline. The payment page spins until I click ok on it in the phone, since my bank wont accept the transaction otherwise.
      - lxgr 4y ago
        The grandparent post was asking about the German payment system, which presumably refers to SEPA Direct Debit, not debit cards. What you are referring to is called 3DS, and it's a feature of both credit and debit cards. (It's available worldwide, but most commonly used in the EU, since it's mandated for ecommerce card transactions in many circumstances.)
- mcv 4y ago
  I don't know how it works in Germany, but in the Dutch system, iDeal, I see the amount I'm authorizing. Of course if I'm sloppy and rapidly clicking through my bank's screens, I might not notice it if they changed the amount at the last moment, but any merchant that can be shown to do that would probably be in a heap of trouble. I do think it's possible to authorize an unspecified amount; automated gas pumps seem to do that, but they seem to be the only ones, and it probably has a hard maximum. Of course any PIN transaction that goes through the merchant's equipment is not quite as secure and relies on a level of trust that's not necessary for online payments, where I give my authorization through my own bank's website.
- lxgr 4y ago
  If they do that (via direct debit), I can click a button in my online banking interface, immediately get the money credited back, and the merchant is debited that amount plus a fee.
parineum 4y ago
> For one, they lack the authorisation to do so I suppose someone should tell the criminals. > there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day. I expect many banks/cards have this ability as well. People just don't use it. Hell, I have a virtual card I frequently use on websites that has a $50 limit per day. I'm sure most other companies have something similar available.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > I suppose someone should tell the criminals. Outside of the US, the banks do tell the criminals - otherwise the banks would be the hook. This is the fundamental difference between the US and the RoW: in the US, fraudulent withdrawals are the depositors problem[1] which banks don't expend too much effort into, elsewhere, it's the banks' problem, consequently banks go the extra mile to prevent fraudulent withdrawals, and when it does happen, are quick to make the depositor whole. 1. This and "identity theft" are emblematic of a mostly American tendency to pass the buck (and losses) to the least powerful and least informed entity (the depositor) for fraud committed against financial institutions using depositor's information.
- mcv 4y ago
  > I suppose someone should tell the criminals. I think they already know, because their efforts are mostly focused on trying to get that authorization. But whether you know about it or not, no authorization means you can't access the money. Requiring explicit authorization is key to security, and I'm extremely wary of payment systems that don't require it, like credit cards.

by mcv 4y ago

happyopossum 4y ago

> they lack the authorisation to do so How does the German banking system prevent an unscrupulous online retailer from charging you 500€ for a 50€ item? Or charging you twice?

6510 4y ago
In the Netherlands the customer picks theirs from a list of banks on the iDEAL website then the transaction is done on their banks website. Other services can be fit in front to extend the choices with other payment processors. shop [> mollie] > iDEAL > ABN > shop or (pc) shop QR > (phone) photo app > iDEAL > ABN
Jensson 4y ago
2FA, you get a popup in your bank app asking "Do you want to pay X euro to Y?" for online payments. Can turn that off if you want, but it isn't a big bother.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  It also only happens for higher-value transactions here. I don't have to authorize every tenner unless it's the 10th in a row or something
- lxgr 4y ago
  That‘s not how direct debit works. There is no accountholder involvement with processing direct debits, but they can be easily reversed (although after the fact). There are related payment schemes though that do initiate a push payment (i.e. SEPA credit transfer), giving the accountholder control over the amount and payee, but they are not yet as ubiquitous or usable internationally.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    That is exactly how my debit card transactions works. When I buy a game on steam using my debit card I get a popup in my phone asking if I really initiated the payment and lets me decline. The payment page spins until I click ok on it in the phone, since my bank wont accept the transaction otherwise.
    - lxgr 4y ago
      The grandparent post was asking about the German payment system, which presumably refers to SEPA Direct Debit, not debit cards. What you are referring to is called 3DS, and it's a feature of both credit and debit cards. (It's available worldwide, but most commonly used in the EU, since it's mandated for ecommerce card transactions in many circumstances.)
mcv 4y ago
I don't know how it works in Germany, but in the Dutch system, iDeal, I see the amount I'm authorizing. Of course if I'm sloppy and rapidly clicking through my bank's screens, I might not notice it if they changed the amount at the last moment, but any merchant that can be shown to do that would probably be in a heap of trouble. I do think it's possible to authorize an unspecified amount; automated gas pumps seem to do that, but they seem to be the only ones, and it probably has a hard maximum. Of course any PIN transaction that goes through the merchant's equipment is not quite as secure and relies on a level of trust that's not necessary for online payments, where I give my authorization through my own bank's website.
lxgr 4y ago
If they do that (via direct debit), I can click a button in my online banking interface, immediately get the money credited back, and the merchant is debited that amount plus a fee.

parineum 4y ago

> For one, they lack the authorisation to do so I suppose someone should tell the criminals. > there's a limit (which I can change) to how much can be transferred per day. I expect many banks/cards have this ability as well. People just don't use it. Hell, I have a virtual card I frequently use on websites that has a $50 limit per day. I'm sure most other companies have something similar available.

sangnoir 4y ago
> I suppose someone should tell the criminals. Outside of the US, the banks do tell the criminals - otherwise the banks would be the hook. This is the fundamental difference between the US and the RoW: in the US, fraudulent withdrawals are the depositors problem[1] which banks don't expend too much effort into, elsewhere, it's the banks' problem, consequently banks go the extra mile to prevent fraudulent withdrawals, and when it does happen, are quick to make the depositor whole. 1. This and "identity theft" are emblematic of a mostly American tendency to pass the buck (and losses) to the least powerful and least informed entity (the depositor) for fraud committed against financial institutions using depositor's information.
mcv 4y ago
> I suppose someone should tell the criminals. I think they already know, because their efforts are mostly focused on trying to get that authorization. But whether you know about it or not, no authorization means you can't access the money. Requiring explicit authorization is key to security, and I'm extremely wary of payment systems that don't require it, like credit cards.