5 ms·

Software patents are monopolies on ideas, which is a stupid idea.

by 1010011010 15y ago

grannyg00se 15y ago
All patents are monopolies on ideas. How is a software patent any different?
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Software is math, and until a few years ago, math was generally held to be unpatentable.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    Bizarre then that cryptography has a bunch of patents.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      I very much agree.
  - fragsworth 15y ago
    Every idea is math, even ideas for physical devices, as long as it is well-defined. If it's not well-defined, then it's ambiguous, and probably shouldn't be patented.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Physical devices can be modeled with math, they are not however mathematics itself. "Programming languages" are in reality nothing more than fancy mathematical notations. Conversion to more traditional notations, such as lambda calculus, is so trivial that any computer science undergrad can do it. To put it bluntly, algorithms are no less math than the Pythagorean Theorem.
      - Dn_Ab 15y ago
        I would suggest a clearer example to be long division or euclid's method. Or that software is like stating the Pythagorean theorem and then proving it constructively. This way the process of what goes on when writing code is better captured in how it relates to math.
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        Great point, thanks.
        oelewapperke 15y ago
        Of course, neither of those are considered math themselves. The concepts behind them are certainly math. But these algorithms are more like models that only imperfectly match the concepts. Long division only applies to a very small subset of the things you can divide. Euclid's algorithm is only useful for the trivial natural number case in N (whereas the real fun these days is to be had in Zn, where Euclid fails to function correctly. It has false positives) Btw: there's a few dozen ways to do what people call "long-division".
  - robotresearcher 15y ago
    | Software is math I strongly disagree. Consider an event-driven presentation and interface layer over a database backend: a very common bit of software. You can't even explain that meaningfully in terms of math, let alone say it is math. Some software has good math-based explanations, but lots of it doesn't. Saying software is math is rather like saying it's all ones and zeros. True in a weak sense, but it doesn't capture much that is meaningful. Often, a piece of software is better understood as a machine, which is a traditional domain of patents. edit: I dislike software patents because they are often granted on stupid things in practice. This is probably due to abuse of the system by applicants, which is a response to the lack of expertise and bad previous judgement by the patent office, which seems to invite such abuse. edit 2: the software patent situation is very hard to change now, since Big Software lobbies very hard to prevent that. But software isn't math.
    - lloeki 15y ago
      Whether you want it or not, software is math[0][1]. It has nothing to do with it being "ones and zeroes" and everything to do with the work of Turing. > You can't even explain that meaningfully in terms of math Oh yes you can. You just lack the tools and understanding for it, and it can get very complex, very quickly, but it can be done, as the Church-Turing thesis (recursion, lambda-calculus, and Turing machines are equivalent) is mathematically proven. And people do actually use that to formally prove correctness of software[2]. [0] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110908075658894 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110908075658894 [1] http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20111005102810176 http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20111005102810... [2] http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/safer-software/312631.article http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/safer-software/312631.arti...
      - bnegreve 15y ago
        Software is not math. Math and software are two different things. It is true that most programs are a solution to a problem that can be formalized with math. However all math is not software and software deals with a lot of issues informally. Computer science is math, maybe.

Software patents are monopolies on ideas, which is a stupid idea.

grannyg00se 15y ago

All patents are monopolies on ideas. How is a software patent any different?

burgerbrain 15y ago
Software is math, and until a few years ago, math was generally held to be unpatentable.
- DanBC 15y ago
  Bizarre then that cryptography has a bunch of patents.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    I very much agree.
- fragsworth 15y ago
  Every idea is math, even ideas for physical devices, as long as it is well-defined. If it's not well-defined, then it's ambiguous, and probably shouldn't be patented.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Physical devices can be modeled with math, they are not however mathematics itself. "Programming languages" are in reality nothing more than fancy mathematical notations. Conversion to more traditional notations, such as lambda calculus, is so trivial that any computer science undergrad can do it. To put it bluntly, algorithms are no less math than the Pythagorean Theorem.
    - Dn_Ab 15y ago
      I would suggest a clearer example to be long division or euclid's method. Or that software is like stating the Pythagorean theorem and then proving it constructively. This way the process of what goes on when writing code is better captured in how it relates to math.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Great point, thanks.
      - oelewapperke 15y ago
        Of course, neither of those are considered math themselves. The concepts behind them are certainly math. But these algorithms are more like models that only imperfectly match the concepts. Long division only applies to a very small subset of the things you can divide. Euclid's algorithm is only useful for the trivial natural number case in N (whereas the real fun these days is to be had in Zn, where Euclid fails to function correctly. It has false positives) Btw: there's a few dozen ways to do what people call "long-division".
- robotresearcher 15y ago
  | Software is math I strongly disagree. Consider an event-driven presentation and interface layer over a database backend: a very common bit of software. You can't even explain that meaningfully in terms of math, let alone say it is math. Some software has good math-based explanations, but lots of it doesn't. Saying software is math is rather like saying it's all ones and zeros. True in a weak sense, but it doesn't capture much that is meaningful. Often, a piece of software is better understood as a machine, which is a traditional domain of patents. edit: I dislike software patents because they are often granted on stupid things in practice. This is probably due to abuse of the system by applicants, which is a response to the lack of expertise and bad previous judgement by the patent office, which seems to invite such abuse. edit 2: the software patent situation is very hard to change now, since Big Software lobbies very hard to prevent that. But software isn't math.
  - lloeki 15y ago
    Whether you want it or not, software is math[0][1]. It has nothing to do with it being "ones and zeroes" and everything to do with the work of Turing. > You can't even explain that meaningfully in terms of math Oh yes you can. You just lack the tools and understanding for it, and it can get very complex, very quickly, but it can be done, as the Church-Turing thesis (recursion, lambda-calculus, and Turing machines are equivalent) is mathematically proven. And people do actually use that to formally prove correctness of software[2]. [0] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110908075658894 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110908075658894 [1] http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20111005102810176 http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20111005102810... [2] http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/safer-software/312631.article http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/safer-software/312631.arti...
    - bnegreve 15y ago
      Software is not math. Math and software are two different things. It is true that most programs are a solution to a problem that can be formalized with math. However all math is not software and software deals with a lot of issues informally. Computer science is math, maybe.