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At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. If a real war starts we can use the services industry, unless we outsource that too.

At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. If a real war starts we can use the services industry, unless we outsource that too. We’ll send the lawyers and software engineers in, and power our cardboard tanks with wood and steam. I was hoping the pandemic and the war in europe would teach us that electronics, particularly high end, should be relocated to allied countries at the very least.

scarface74 4y ago
You’re ignoring the entire dependence on the worldwide supply chain. That’s like Cook making a show of “manufacturing Mac Pros” in the US for Trump when only final assembly was done here. He did the same dog and pony show in Great Brittain.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Well thats the issue. The whole suite of dependencies needs to be moved back, except where impossible - i.e. minerals etc. Having moved all of this outside the free world we slowed down progress in our own countries. Imagine being forced to come up with cheaper alternatives at home where we’d be with robotics, automation and space mining today. Instead we finance countries that seek to challenge us.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What good does it do to move all of the dependencies except for the most important foundational dependencies?
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      Is your assumption here that all minerals are distributed equally, or equally accessible?
      - scarface74 4y ago
        I am saying just the opposite. Most of the easily accessible “rare minerals” are in countries that aren’t our allies.
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      Because we have no option. Such resources are limited. We either destroy our own environment - assuming it holds such resources - suck up or expand outwards. I’d choose the latter but it seems our collective culture is weak and unable to sustain radical positive transformation. The industrial revolution couldn't take place today even if we wanted, let alone ambitious resource extraction projects.
rdbell 4y ago
International trade dependency is one of the biggest deterrents to war and often helps countries become allies.
- ninth_ant 4y ago
  Ukraine’s #1 trading partner was Russia, and Russia’s #3 trading partner was Ukraine. I remember reading the same argument in the 90s, and it seemed to have a lot of merit. But, experience shows us that it’s not correct.
  - vletal 4y ago
    Exactly. Russia's #1 gas importer is EU.
  - csours 4y ago
    Russia (Putin) sees Ukraine as basically a subordinate state; likewise with Georgia and Belarus. That would make this action a civil war, which is basically how it's been treated by the international community.
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    No deterrent is effective against a regime sufficiently detached from reality. Putin called it a "special military operation" for a reason. It was supposed to be like Czechoslovakia in 1968. The troops go in, reach Kyiv in a few days, and take over without any real fighting. Ukraine was not supposed to be able and willing to resist. Russian military didn't even know there was going to be a war, which is why it failed so catastrophically in the first days. The outcome of this war is going to determine whether international trade is still an effective deterrent. If Russian economy depends so much on Western technology that they will lose in the long term regardless of the oucome of the war, this was just the exception that tests the rule. If the West gives up and resumes trading with Russia, the deterrent will be gone.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Yeah it did exactly nothing to stop the ongoing war in europe and little to prevent china from brutally overtaking hong long. Meanwhile china is openly flexing muscles around taiwan. If anything its us that are deterred from action - see germany and russia.
dav_Oz 4y ago
Well, there is some substantial outsourcing of the army and intelligence services via private (military) contractors [0]. In a world of increasing PPP (Public-Private Partnerships) the line gets very blurry indeed. One interesting line of thought (I don't share personally (yet) but find compelling as a dystopian possibility) is that the dirty business of censoring/filtering is outsourced by private companies (i.e. Big Tech with their unparalleled outreach: Twitter, Alphabet, Meta ... ) so that governments can wash their hands of it. [0]https://medium.com/smartaim-tech/war-for-money-leading-private-military-companies-of-the-world-eab9f9fe2de8 https://medium.com/smartaim-tech/war-for-money-leading-priva...
- yrgulation 4y ago
  I dont want to sound like trump but even a broken clock is right twice a day. We have truly made a joke of ourselves.
  - reidjs 4y ago
    That quote predates Trump.
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      He’s abused it so often that people associate it with him.
booleandilemma 4y ago
Would it be so bad to outsource the US government to say, Sweden, or one of those other Nordic countries? I feel like they know what they're doing. Could we at least outsource the NYC MTA to them?
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Note the term “allied” in my comment. Cooperation, sharing of intel and workload among allies is not an issue in my view. I am not a looney nationalist or protectionist, nor do i have an issue with china or russia or their people, i simply want the free world to end its reliance on countries that will not hesitate to use it against us. Also it would help our economies and overall progress.
Apocryphon 4y ago
We've already been increasing dependence on PMCs, as the Romans did with mercenaries, in our last big war: https://www.wired.com/2004/07/coalition-of-the-billing/ https://www.wired.com/2004/07/coalition-of-the-billing/
bigcat12345678 4y ago
> At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. Chuckled here. Do you realized that normal American people are being outsourced and they don't have much say to determine the process? Your words read like a slave joking with fellow slaves: one day our master will outsourcing to some other nations. That's truly sad analogy.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
karpierz 4y ago
> At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. Funnily enough, this was how war functioned in Europe between 1500-1750s. Armies were too expensive to maintain, so states hired mercenaries. The problem was that mercenaries wouldn't have any incentive to risk themselves to end things quickly. And when you inevitably run out of money to pay them, in the best case they'd just pack up and leave. In the worst case, they'd loot your city on the way out. Source: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691027647/makers-of-modern-strategy-from-machiavelli-to-the-nuclear-age https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691027647/ma...

scarface74 4y ago

You’re ignoring the entire dependence on the worldwide supply chain. That’s like Cook making a show of “manufacturing Mac Pros” in the US for Trump when only final assembly was done here. He did the same dog and pony show in Great Brittain.

yrgulation 4y ago
Well thats the issue. The whole suite of dependencies needs to be moved back, except where impossible - i.e. minerals etc. Having moved all of this outside the free world we slowed down progress in our own countries. Imagine being forced to come up with cheaper alternatives at home where we’d be with robotics, automation and space mining today. Instead we finance countries that seek to challenge us.
- scarface74 4y ago
  What good does it do to move all of the dependencies except for the most important foundational dependencies?
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    Is your assumption here that all minerals are distributed equally, or equally accessible?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      I am saying just the opposite. Most of the easily accessible “rare minerals” are in countries that aren’t our allies.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    Because we have no option. Such resources are limited. We either destroy our own environment - assuming it holds such resources - suck up or expand outwards. I’d choose the latter but it seems our collective culture is weak and unable to sustain radical positive transformation. The industrial revolution couldn't take place today even if we wanted, let alone ambitious resource extraction projects.

rdbell 4y ago

International trade dependency is one of the biggest deterrents to war and often helps countries become allies.

ninth_ant 4y ago
Ukraine’s #1 trading partner was Russia, and Russia’s #3 trading partner was Ukraine. I remember reading the same argument in the 90s, and it seemed to have a lot of merit. But, experience shows us that it’s not correct.
- vletal 4y ago
  Exactly. Russia's #1 gas importer is EU.
- csours 4y ago
  Russia (Putin) sees Ukraine as basically a subordinate state; likewise with Georgia and Belarus. That would make this action a civil war, which is basically how it's been treated by the international community.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  No deterrent is effective against a regime sufficiently detached from reality. Putin called it a "special military operation" for a reason. It was supposed to be like Czechoslovakia in 1968. The troops go in, reach Kyiv in a few days, and take over without any real fighting. Ukraine was not supposed to be able and willing to resist. Russian military didn't even know there was going to be a war, which is why it failed so catastrophically in the first days. The outcome of this war is going to determine whether international trade is still an effective deterrent. If Russian economy depends so much on Western technology that they will lose in the long term regardless of the oucome of the war, this was just the exception that tests the rule. If the West gives up and resumes trading with Russia, the deterrent will be gone.
yrgulation 4y ago
Yeah it did exactly nothing to stop the ongoing war in europe and little to prevent china from brutally overtaking hong long. Meanwhile china is openly flexing muscles around taiwan. If anything its us that are deterred from action - see germany and russia.

dav_Oz 4y ago

Well, there is some substantial outsourcing of the army and intelligence services via private (military) contractors [0]. In a world of increasing PPP (Public-Private Partnerships) the line gets very blurry indeed. One interesting line of thought (I don't share personally (yet) but find compelling as a dystopian possibility) is that the dirty business of censoring/filtering is outsourced by private companies (i.e. Big Tech with their unparalleled outreach: Twitter, Alphabet, Meta ... ) so that governments can wash their hands of it. [0]https://medium.com/smartaim-tech/war-for-money-leading-private-military-companies-of-the-world-eab9f9fe2de8 https://medium.com/smartaim-tech/war-for-money-leading-priva...

yrgulation 4y ago
I dont want to sound like trump but even a broken clock is right twice a day. We have truly made a joke of ourselves.
- reidjs 4y ago
  That quote predates Trump.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    He’s abused it so often that people associate it with him.

booleandilemma 4y ago

Would it be so bad to outsource the US government to say, Sweden, or one of those other Nordic countries? I feel like they know what they're doing. Could we at least outsource the NYC MTA to them?

yrgulation 4y ago
Note the term “allied” in my comment. Cooperation, sharing of intel and workload among allies is not an issue in my view. I am not a looney nationalist or protectionist, nor do i have an issue with china or russia or their people, i simply want the free world to end its reliance on countries that will not hesitate to use it against us. Also it would help our economies and overall progress.

Apocryphon 4y ago

We've already been increasing dependence on PMCs, as the Romans did with mercenaries, in our last big war: https://www.wired.com/2004/07/coalition-of-the-billing/ https://www.wired.com/2004/07/coalition-of-the-billing/

bigcat12345678 4y ago

> At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. Chuckled here. Do you realized that normal American people are being outsourced and they don't have much say to determine the process? Your words read like a slave joking with fellow slaves: one day our master will outsourcing to some other nations. That's truly sad analogy.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

karpierz 4y ago

> At some point we should outsource our armies and perhaps even governments. Funnily enough, this was how war functioned in Europe between 1500-1750s. Armies were too expensive to maintain, so states hired mercenaries. The problem was that mercenaries wouldn't have any incentive to risk themselves to end things quickly. And when you inevitably run out of money to pay them, in the best case they'd just pack up and leave. In the worst case, they'd loot your city on the way out. Source: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691027647/makers-of-modern-strategy-from-machiavelli-to-the-nuclear-age https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691027647/ma...