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There is no hypocrisy there, like everything in life, including startup life, everything comes down to money. And money is power. The US created the Saudi Ara

by ProAm 4y ago

There is no hypocrisy there, like everything in life, including startup life, everything comes down to money. And money is power. The US created the Saudi Arabian powerhouse we see today. We need them to keep our economic inertia moving forward at a pace acceptable for the populace. Is it a travesty? 100% But we made this bed.

chitowneats 4y ago
Americans like to pretend that we fight for higher ideals than naked self interest or national interest.
- whiddershins 4y ago
  Americans fight for ideals all the time. Individual Americans do, and this includes individuals in government. It is true to say that much that is represented as being about ideals is really something else in disguise. And there is rampant corruption and so forth. But it takes cynicism too far to say that ideals never factor in. There are many principled people with ideals having impact in the world every day, and there is nothing enlightened about deriding their efforts or pretending they don't exist.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    I believe the thread was about the behaviour of governments, not individuals. Principled and idealistic individuals exist everywhere, including Saudi Arabia as the article shows.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - random314 4y ago
    > Americans fight for ideals all the time The US government, post ww2, fights for Corporations in the NATO axis that benefit from a particular regime being in power in a particular country. Sometimes these regimes are democratic, other times they are not. The ideals are kool aid to sell to the public to garner support for war. For eg, US has toppled democracies in Haiti and Iran to support corporate interests. It supported dictatorship in Haiti, Saudi, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran etc to promote the interests of NATO corporations.
    - zeraynor 4y ago
      It's neither all "freedom and democracy" nor all "ruthless greed". Your post feels like kool aid in "ruthless greed" direction. Government decisions are made by human beings in positions of power. Being in a position of power, such as the president of the United States, is a balancing of owns personal beliefs/morality and the interests of the United States. The composition of those components and the position of the pendulum in that balance varies depending on who you are. Your position supposes nobody with ideals becomes members of government or that members of government somehow compartmentalize American cultural ideals/identity. Plenty of hypocrisy abounds, no doubt, but your take is overly cynical.
      - random314 4y ago
        > Your post feels like kool aid in "ruthless greed" direction. I have cited several examples, you cant call it kool aid because it disagrees with your beliefs. Feel free to offer counter examples. Counter examples I am looking for 1. American support for a democracy that is not conditioned on alignment with NATO. 2. Or equivalently displacement of a dictatorial regime that is aligned with NATO, with a democratic regime that is less or equally aligned with NATO. I can easily predict with 100% accuracy which faction the US government and media will support from this simple principle of NATO alignment. The most hilarious example of this was when US fought against ISIS in Iraq, while supporting ISIS in Syria - because they were fighting against Assad(who aligned with Russia). To prevent Americans from cognitive dissonance, ISIS factions in Syria were referred to in US media as "rebels". With US media highlighting and magnifying tweets from Syrian ISIS accounts, when Assad wrested control of Aleppo from ISIS and Al Qaeda affiliated "rebels" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_offensive_(October%E2%80%93November_2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_offensive_(October%E2%8... Check out the composition and history of the "rebel" groups. Army of Conquest Fatah Halab Ansar al-Islam Jabhat Ansar al-Din https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-aleppo-girl-idCAKBN13J1LZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-alep... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/middleeast/aleppo-twitter-girl-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/middleeast/aleppo-t... https://www.wired.com/2016/12/powerless-people-aleppo-tweeting-help/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/powerless-people-aleppo-tweeti... Here US media amplifies and propagates evidence free ISIS propaganda in Syria. If these "rebels" were such great humanitarians, why weren't they welcome in Iraq? https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/12/last-rebels-in-aleppo-say-assad-forces-are-burning-people-alive https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/12/last-rebel... However, when civilians fled the fled to "regime" (read Assad) controlled areas. "Yesterday, some residents who couldn’t take the bombardment anymore fled toward regime controlled areas, according to Othman." Amnesty internationals report directly contradicts US media reporting which blamed civilian casualties on Assad. "Amnesty International stated that the "armed opposition groups have displayed a shocking disregard for civilian lives", deploying weapons "whose use in the vicinity of densely populated civilian areas flagrantly violates international humanitarian law". The organization called the rebel groups to "end all attacks that fail to distinguish between military targets and civilians"." More honest reporting outside US media, where Obama and Kerry squirm at the optics of supporting Al Qaeda and ISIS against Assad. https://www.mei.edu/publications/under-pressure-syrias-rebels-face-al-nusra-quandary https://www.mei.edu/publications/under-pressure-syrias-rebel... Non US media reports that Kerry acknowledged that US has been supporting "terrorists" "As the unthinkable was becoming a reality in Aleppo, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry held a day of talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in Moscow and agreed to a series of undetermined terms for bilateral cooperation against terrorism in Syria"
  - kodah 4y ago
    I like to think of it as, collectively our ideals are a compass. We keep heading North but it doesn't mean we don't get lost walking in circles. It also doesn't preclude that sometimes when we think we're heading North we're actually heading South. Making a mockery of our ideals is like making fun of someone for carrying a compass or dating to shoot an azimuth. Unfortunately a good amount of people inside the US and out like to do that.
mjevans 4y ago
Political independence is desirable. Absolute independence is unlikely and possibly unwise as well in a multi party system. However more choices means less power consolidated by any small number of potentially disagreeable actors. Say Yes to all sorts of energy. Solar, Wind, even modern Nuclear designed to be safe and with 'waste reduction' steps in mind for partly spent fuel that needs to be processed again at carefully controlled military guarded sites (since these processes can also make weapons).

by ProAm 4y ago

chitowneats 4y ago

Americans like to pretend that we fight for higher ideals than naked self interest or national interest.

whiddershins 4y ago
Americans fight for ideals all the time. Individual Americans do, and this includes individuals in government. It is true to say that much that is represented as being about ideals is really something else in disguise. And there is rampant corruption and so forth. But it takes cynicism too far to say that ideals never factor in. There are many principled people with ideals having impact in the world every day, and there is nothing enlightened about deriding their efforts or pretending they don't exist.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  I believe the thread was about the behaviour of governments, not individuals. Principled and idealistic individuals exist everywhere, including Saudi Arabia as the article shows.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- random314 4y ago
  > Americans fight for ideals all the time The US government, post ww2, fights for Corporations in the NATO axis that benefit from a particular regime being in power in a particular country. Sometimes these regimes are democratic, other times they are not. The ideals are kool aid to sell to the public to garner support for war. For eg, US has toppled democracies in Haiti and Iran to support corporate interests. It supported dictatorship in Haiti, Saudi, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran etc to promote the interests of NATO corporations.
  - zeraynor 4y ago
    It's neither all "freedom and democracy" nor all "ruthless greed". Your post feels like kool aid in "ruthless greed" direction. Government decisions are made by human beings in positions of power. Being in a position of power, such as the president of the United States, is a balancing of owns personal beliefs/morality and the interests of the United States. The composition of those components and the position of the pendulum in that balance varies depending on who you are. Your position supposes nobody with ideals becomes members of government or that members of government somehow compartmentalize American cultural ideals/identity. Plenty of hypocrisy abounds, no doubt, but your take is overly cynical.
    - random314 4y ago
      > Your post feels like kool aid in "ruthless greed" direction. I have cited several examples, you cant call it kool aid because it disagrees with your beliefs. Feel free to offer counter examples. Counter examples I am looking for 1. American support for a democracy that is not conditioned on alignment with NATO. 2. Or equivalently displacement of a dictatorial regime that is aligned with NATO, with a democratic regime that is less or equally aligned with NATO. I can easily predict with 100% accuracy which faction the US government and media will support from this simple principle of NATO alignment. The most hilarious example of this was when US fought against ISIS in Iraq, while supporting ISIS in Syria - because they were fighting against Assad(who aligned with Russia). To prevent Americans from cognitive dissonance, ISIS factions in Syria were referred to in US media as "rebels". With US media highlighting and magnifying tweets from Syrian ISIS accounts, when Assad wrested control of Aleppo from ISIS and Al Qaeda affiliated "rebels" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_offensive_(October%E2%80%93November_2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_offensive_(October%E2%8... Check out the composition and history of the "rebel" groups. Army of Conquest Fatah Halab Ansar al-Islam Jabhat Ansar al-Din https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-aleppo-girl-idCAKBN13J1LZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-alep... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/middleeast/aleppo-twitter-girl-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/middleeast/aleppo-t... https://www.wired.com/2016/12/powerless-people-aleppo-tweeting-help/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/powerless-people-aleppo-tweeti... Here US media amplifies and propagates evidence free ISIS propaganda in Syria. If these "rebels" were such great humanitarians, why weren't they welcome in Iraq? https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/12/last-rebels-in-aleppo-say-assad-forces-are-burning-people-alive https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/12/last-rebel... However, when civilians fled the fled to "regime" (read Assad) controlled areas. "Yesterday, some residents who couldn’t take the bombardment anymore fled toward regime controlled areas, according to Othman." Amnesty internationals report directly contradicts US media reporting which blamed civilian casualties on Assad. "Amnesty International stated that the "armed opposition groups have displayed a shocking disregard for civilian lives", deploying weapons "whose use in the vicinity of densely populated civilian areas flagrantly violates international humanitarian law". The organization called the rebel groups to "end all attacks that fail to distinguish between military targets and civilians"." More honest reporting outside US media, where Obama and Kerry squirm at the optics of supporting Al Qaeda and ISIS against Assad. https://www.mei.edu/publications/under-pressure-syrias-rebels-face-al-nusra-quandary https://www.mei.edu/publications/under-pressure-syrias-rebel... Non US media reports that Kerry acknowledged that US has been supporting "terrorists" "As the unthinkable was becoming a reality in Aleppo, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry held a day of talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in Moscow and agreed to a series of undetermined terms for bilateral cooperation against terrorism in Syria"
- kodah 4y ago
  I like to think of it as, collectively our ideals are a compass. We keep heading North but it doesn't mean we don't get lost walking in circles. It also doesn't preclude that sometimes when we think we're heading North we're actually heading South. Making a mockery of our ideals is like making fun of someone for carrying a compass or dating to shoot an azimuth. Unfortunately a good amount of people inside the US and out like to do that.

mjevans 4y ago

Political independence is desirable. Absolute independence is unlikely and possibly unwise as well in a multi party system. However more choices means less power consolidated by any small number of potentially disagreeable actors. Say Yes to all sorts of energy. Solar, Wind, even modern Nuclear designed to be safe and with 'waste reduction' steps in mind for partly spent fuel that needs to be processed again at carefully controlled military guarded sites (since these processes can also make weapons).