4 ms·

Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. It's not my main OS, but as I th

Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. It's not my main OS, but as I think I said in my last comment, it has a friendly and dedicated community. It's also very much community driven, and therefore does lag due to lack of manpower. Even with all of NetBSD's faults, I'm not entirely sure you gave it a fair shot. I'm going to do some friendly nit-picking now... ;) >Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the truth as I see it, with considerable expert knowledge. No hurt feelings here, just a commentary from a non-expert on what I thought wasn't a well put together article. >Not when you have an editor phoning you up and saying "Liam, where is my copy? I need it now!" I agree NetBSD has it's issues, but your deadlines aren't a responsibility of NetBSD, and I don't see a situation where someone installs a new, slightly obscure OS and then needs answers NOW..... If the mailing lists aren't fast enough, there's the NetBSD subreddit, which isn't as active as say /r/linux, but if you asked a question there you would get an answer. It happens everyday. I mentioned unitedbsd.com because if you google something about netbsd, that forum seems to come up. It's fairly active and people will help you out. You're trying to come from the perspective of a new user. I would think people using something new for the first time might google it, or try youtube. The second result of a youtube search is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ an install of 9.2. The install process hasn't changed much (or at all) between 9.2 and 9.3. I did see the reg commenter who said that they didn't know what pkgin in is. Pkgin is in the official documentation for NetBSD. Honestly, my biggest gripe and the only thing I really didn't get is how you went about installing it. You said you just followed defaults, but the install is menu driven? After you install the base sets, you're given a menu (https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst-system-configuration https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst...) that allows you to config your network, set a root password, add a user, set up pkgin to "enable installation of binary packages" etc. Wouldn't a new user be interested in what that menu has to offer? Or are you suggesting they would just skip the whole process entirely and reboot their system? >For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. I wrote a long paragraph here then deleted it; this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on. In relation to that, I would disagree with what you wrote here: > I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows The Register seems to have a pretty knowledgeable audience, and they must be familiar with at least mainstream linux distros? >For a non-expert viewer those are minor implementation details, akin to weird arcane disagreements over the wording of different free software licenses. Normal people do not know or care. (Maybe they should; that is a totally different argument and one I am not interested in here. In real life, they don't.) I agree the average person doesn't need to get lost in flame wars about software licenses, but I never argued that. I'm just talking about understanding that NetBSD!=Linux, just like debian!=fedora. They all have different quirks that would have to be dealt with as you learn to use them. No different that switching between windows or macOS. I agree with you're article and your comment about Net's documentation and hardware support. But that all comes down to manpower and money, which it has far less of than any linux or any BSD.

lproven 4y ago
> Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! It is a pleasure to engage. :-) > I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. I plan to, certainly. I need to get my editor's agreement. My main worry is that if it's not a big change, not much difference, he won't think it's worth the time. > Even with all of NetBSD's faults, I'm not entirely sure you gave it a fair shot. TBH, whenever I have written about any BSD, I've had similar comments. I am a tough critic. I see that as part of my job. > I don't see a situation where someone installs a new, slightly obscure OS and then needs answers NOW... Really? That astonishes me. It is a busy, fast-changing world. Basically, when I look for answers to tech problems, I Google for them. I do not usually have time to ask, and then to wait. There are exceptions, and Cunningham's Law applies. I used it recently, in fact, with great success. But no, usually, when I am evaluating something, I go Googling. I do have over 30Y of xNix experience. Asking is an absolute last resort when I can't find an answer out there somewhere. And I'm afraid the same applies to reading manuals. A README.TXT file may get skimmed, but I expect answers to be findable by a search. I am not going to read hundreds of pages to find them. I do participate in lots of mailing lists and a few fora and newsgroups, including here. > I mentioned unitedbsd.com because if you google something about netbsd, that forum seems to come up. Never has for me yet, TBH. > You're trying to come from the perspective of a new user. I would think people using something new for the first time might google it, As I said in the article, just to get the thing installed at all, I did a lot of Googling. Youtube? Oh no. Oh H3LL no. I can't watch video tutorials. They are way way too slow. I am not a millennial and I do not use video to get info. > I did see the reg commenter who said that they didn't know what pkgin in is. Oh good. > Pkgin is in the official documentation for NetBSD. Indeed so, and I replied to that effect. But this shows the broad spread of knowledge and preferences among experienced users. > Honestly, my biggest gripe and the only thing I really didn't get is how you went about installing it. As I said: I basically did what any newbie would do. Yes, yes, yes, yes, everything, yes, yes... Until it was done. > You said you just followed defaults, but the install is menu driven? I picked the first option or the next step or whatever seemed most obvious. I went through, step by step, doing everything that it asked me to do, until it said it was installed. I had never heard of `pkgin` before, and if that was an option install then I probably would have skipped it. I don't really want to go through the whole process again, TBH. I am surprised that here and in the comments, people find this hard to believe or understand, and ask foolish questions like "maybe he was in single-user mode and didn't notice". > Or are you suggesting they would just skip the whole process entirely and reboot their system? I'm not suggesting anything. I went through all the indicated steps it asked me and the end result was no pkgin command in the path and no online repos configured. > >For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. > I wrote a long paragraph here then deleted it; this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on. Shrug The world is mostly Windows users with some Mac users. On the desktop, everything else is a rounding error. There are hundreds of millions of ChromeBook users now, but they mostly don't know what Linux is. They've never heard of it, and that is right and good. They should not have to. > > I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows > The Register seems to have a pretty knowledgeable audience, and they must be familiar with at least mainstream linux distros? You'd think that, wouldn't you? You'd be surprised, then. I was. The comments and the emails contain a very broad span of knowledge and experience, as you would expect. But the fat part of the curve is not expert. Mostly it's people who need to get their job done. And that means a lot of Windows people who never even look at Linux. > I'm just talking about understanding that NetBSD!=Linux, just like debian!=fedora. They all have different quirks that would have to be dealt with as you learn to use them. Hmmmm. I am not sure I agree here. I think it needs a fair level of domain expert knowledge to know what a kernel is, and what the difference between an OS and a distro is. No, I do not think most people know that. As an example, try Googling for "raspberry pi alternative OS" or words to that effect. 90% or more of articles about the RasPi will talk at length about different OSes and just list a dozen Linux distros. These are people running sites and writing content for a living, and they do not know the difference. No, I think most Windows or Mac users don't know that there's a difference between xBSD and Linux. As an example I get a lot: FOSS xNix users as a rule do not know what the word "Unix" means. It does not mean "based on AT&T code". It hasn't for 30 years. Since ~1993 "Unix" means "passes Open Group testing" AND THAT IS ALL. Multiple Linux distros have passed. Therefore, in law, and technically speaking -- both -- Linux is a UNIX. The term "Unix-like" is obsolete and has had no real meaning in 3 decades. Unix is as Unix does. If it has a sh prompt, it's a Unix. As such, to the non-xNix using majority, Linux = Unix and Unix = Linux. They are the same thing and they mean the same. AND THEY ARE RIGHT. It's harsh but it's life. No, the average curious hobbyist, idly interested, doesn't know. As such, I feel that the install, setup & configuration process of any free xNix has to compete with, at least, a techie Linux distro such as, say, Arch or Alpine. I am aware the xBSD world does not see it like that. I feel that it is my duty as an industry observer to attempt to make them aware of it. I expected resistance to this, and I am getting it. :-) Right now, in fact. :-D

lproven 4y ago

> Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! It is a pleasure to engage. :-) > I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. I plan to, certainly. I need to get my editor's agreement. My main worry is that if it's not a big change, not much difference, he won't think it's worth the time. > Even with all of NetBSD's faults, I'm not entirely sure you gave it a fair shot. TBH, whenever I have written about any BSD, I've had similar comments. I am a tough critic. I see that as part of my job. > I don't see a situation where someone installs a new, slightly obscure OS and then needs answers NOW... Really? That astonishes me. It is a busy, fast-changing world. Basically, when I look for answers to tech problems, I Google for them. I do not usually have time to ask, and then to wait. There are exceptions, and Cunningham's Law applies. I used it recently, in fact, with great success. But no, usually, when I am evaluating something, I go Googling. I do have over 30Y of xNix experience. Asking is an absolute last resort when I can't find an answer out there somewhere. And I'm afraid the same applies to reading manuals. A README.TXT file may get skimmed, but I expect answers to be findable by a search. I am not going to read hundreds of pages to find them. I do participate in lots of mailing lists and a few fora and newsgroups, including here. > I mentioned unitedbsd.com because if you google something about netbsd, that forum seems to come up. Never has for me yet, TBH. > You're trying to come from the perspective of a new user. I would think people using something new for the first time might google it, As I said in the article, just to get the thing installed at all, I did a lot of Googling. Youtube? Oh no. Oh H3LL no. I can't watch video tutorials. They are way way too slow. I am not a millennial and I do not use video to get info. > I did see the reg commenter who said that they didn't know what pkgin in is. Oh good. > Pkgin is in the official documentation for NetBSD. Indeed so, and I replied to that effect. But this shows the broad spread of knowledge and preferences among experienced users. > Honestly, my biggest gripe and the only thing I really didn't get is how you went about installing it. As I said: I basically did what any newbie would do. Yes, yes, yes, yes, everything, yes, yes... Until it was done. > You said you just followed defaults, but the install is menu driven? I picked the first option or the next step or whatever seemed most obvious. I went through, step by step, doing everything that it asked me to do, until it said it was installed. I had never heard of `pkgin` before, and if that was an option install then I probably would have skipped it. I don't really want to go through the whole process again, TBH. I am surprised that here and in the comments, people find this hard to believe or understand, and ask foolish questions like "maybe he was in single-user mode and didn't notice". > Or are you suggesting they would just skip the whole process entirely and reboot their system? I'm not suggesting anything. I went through all the indicated steps it asked me and the end result was no pkgin command in the path and no online repos configured. > >For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. > I wrote a long paragraph here then deleted it; this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on. Shrug The world is mostly Windows users with some Mac users. On the desktop, everything else is a rounding error. There are hundreds of millions of ChromeBook users now, but they mostly don't know what Linux is. They've never heard of it, and that is right and good. They should not have to. > > I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows > The Register seems to have a pretty knowledgeable audience, and they must be familiar with at least mainstream linux distros? You'd think that, wouldn't you? You'd be surprised, then. I was. The comments and the emails contain a very broad span of knowledge and experience, as you would expect. But the fat part of the curve is not expert. Mostly it's people who need to get their job done. And that means a lot of Windows people who never even look at Linux. > I'm just talking about understanding that NetBSD!=Linux, just like debian!=fedora. They all have different quirks that would have to be dealt with as you learn to use them. Hmmmm. I am not sure I agree here. I think it needs a fair level of domain expert knowledge to know what a kernel is, and what the difference between an OS and a distro is. No, I do not think most people know that. As an example, try Googling for "raspberry pi alternative OS" or words to that effect. 90% or more of articles about the RasPi will talk at length about different OSes and just list a dozen Linux distros. These are people running sites and writing content for a living, and they do not know the difference. No, I think most Windows or Mac users don't know that there's a difference between xBSD and Linux. As an example I get a lot: FOSS xNix users as a rule do not know what the word "Unix" means. It does not mean "based on AT&T code". It hasn't for 30 years. Since ~1993 "Unix" means "passes Open Group testing" AND THAT IS ALL. Multiple Linux distros have passed. Therefore, in law, and technically speaking -- both -- Linux is a UNIX. The term "Unix-like" is obsolete and has had no real meaning in 3 decades. Unix is as Unix does. If it has a sh prompt, it's a Unix. As such, to the non-xNix using majority, Linux = Unix and Unix = Linux. They are the same thing and they mean the same. AND THEY ARE RIGHT. It's harsh but it's life. No, the average curious hobbyist, idly interested, doesn't know. As such, I feel that the install, setup & configuration process of any free xNix has to compete with, at least, a techie Linux distro such as, say, Arch or Alpine. I am aware the xBSD world does not see it like that. I feel that it is my duty as an industry observer to attempt to make them aware of it. I expected resistance to this, and I am getting it. :-) Right now, in fact. :-D