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This argument also just assumes, 'anyone can sit down and use excel'. Which is not true, excel has a learning curve like anything else, most people learn 'just

This argument also just assumes, 'anyone can sit down and use excel'. Which is not true, excel has a learning curve like anything else, most people learn 'just enough' to do their job, maybe there is a guy in their office that knows a little bit more and they can learn from them. But excel proficiency acquisition is very similar to a programming proficiency acquisition, maybe the track runs out faster (at some point you reach real diminishing returns and limits to a spreadsheet's capabilities but I've seen some insane shit written in excel, raytracers for instance, but no-one who has done that thinks it's a good idea.)

ziddoap 4y ago
>excel has a learning curve like anything else, Agreed. >But excel proficiency acquisition is very similar to a programming proficiency acquisition Strong disagree. Maybe if you only consider those extreme cases you referenced (ray-tracing, heavy VBA, etc.), sure. But in general? No shot. Excel gives immediate feedback with a visual interface. There's no need to learn about variables or syntax or memory or compiling. There's no dependencies and no package managers. It abstracts nearly everything away. Click the place you want the thing to go, type the thing. Want a chart? Click the picture of the chart you like and click and drag over what you want in the chart. Want to change chart colors? Click the color you want. Want to change how the data is displayed visually? Press the bold button, or the color button, or the border button, whatever your heart desires is a click away with the same interface your used to with Word. A great comparison is a geographic heatmap. In Excel, you need 2 columns. One with some States/Provinces and the other with some numbers. Then you click the big map button and instantly have your map. I can write the instructions for it in the space of a napkin and someone who has never touched Excel can be making all the maps they want. Now think about how you would explain making the same geographic heatmap in Python (or whatever your 'easy' language of choice is) to someone who has never learned any programming concepts.
- barnabee 4y ago
  The amazing thing about Excel is that many (most?) people start using it without EVEN knowing how to make a simple formula. They literally start using it as a way to lay out tables (usually of data). Then they make graphs. And add more tables. And learn how to use it like a basic pocket calculator (half of the formula I see that should be sums are actually =B21+B22+B23+B24+B25…) Then comes SUM. Then VLOOOKUP. Perhaps some IFs or COUNTIFs. This process can take years for someone to go from first use to anything even slightly programming-like, if you squint at it. A tiny fraction of these people ever do anything complex enough it looks even much like low-code or no-code "development". Even less write macros. But you know what? In the first half hour, when all they wanted was to email round a list of team members and their lunch preferences, they already achieved something with Excel that they found useful, and they felt productive ever since. Most Excel users spend almost NO time learning the tool compared to how much time they spend getting (what they see as, and what probably is) value out of it, even when we are sat in sheer terror as we witness the horror they have unleashed on the world. That is the bar you have to clear to make a "better Excel".
  - sleepybrett 4y ago
    Honestly I tried to do some simple shit in excel today for the first time in years and holy shit, who thought this ribbon interface was a good idea. I'm going back to apple's numbers.
    - barnabee 4y ago
      I don’t get the ribbon either, I keep it hidden and put everything I want on the quick access toolbar.
jrm4 4y ago
But it's way more discoverable, which is something that most "programming languages" of course, don't do at all.

ziddoap 4y ago

>excel has a learning curve like anything else, Agreed. >But excel proficiency acquisition is very similar to a programming proficiency acquisition Strong disagree. Maybe if you only consider those extreme cases you referenced (ray-tracing, heavy VBA, etc.), sure. But in general? No shot. Excel gives immediate feedback with a visual interface. There's no need to learn about variables or syntax or memory or compiling. There's no dependencies and no package managers. It abstracts nearly everything away. Click the place you want the thing to go, type the thing. Want a chart? Click the picture of the chart you like and click and drag over what you want in the chart. Want to change chart colors? Click the color you want. Want to change how the data is displayed visually? Press the bold button, or the color button, or the border button, whatever your heart desires is a click away with the same interface your used to with Word. A great comparison is a geographic heatmap. In Excel, you need 2 columns. One with some States/Provinces and the other with some numbers. Then you click the big map button and instantly have your map. I can write the instructions for it in the space of a napkin and someone who has never touched Excel can be making all the maps they want. Now think about how you would explain making the same geographic heatmap in Python (or whatever your 'easy' language of choice is) to someone who has never learned any programming concepts.

barnabee 4y ago
The amazing thing about Excel is that many (most?) people start using it without EVEN knowing how to make a simple formula. They literally start using it as a way to lay out tables (usually of data). Then they make graphs. And add more tables. And learn how to use it like a basic pocket calculator (half of the formula I see that should be sums are actually =B21+B22+B23+B24+B25…) Then comes SUM. Then VLOOOKUP. Perhaps some IFs or COUNTIFs. This process can take years for someone to go from first use to anything even slightly programming-like, if you squint at it. A tiny fraction of these people ever do anything complex enough it looks even much like low-code or no-code "development". Even less write macros. But you know what? In the first half hour, when all they wanted was to email round a list of team members and their lunch preferences, they already achieved something with Excel that they found useful, and they felt productive ever since. Most Excel users spend almost NO time learning the tool compared to how much time they spend getting (what they see as, and what probably is) value out of it, even when we are sat in sheer terror as we witness the horror they have unleashed on the world. That is the bar you have to clear to make a "better Excel".
- sleepybrett 4y ago
  Honestly I tried to do some simple shit in excel today for the first time in years and holy shit, who thought this ribbon interface was a good idea. I'm going back to apple's numbers.
  - barnabee 4y ago
    I don’t get the ribbon either, I keep it hidden and put everything I want on the quick access toolbar.

jrm4 4y ago

But it's way more discoverable, which is something that most "programming languages" of course, don't do at all.