8 ms·

yet, they place a lot of trust in the meat industry when eating rare steaks

toast0 4y ago
Isn't US rare more cooked than the rest of the world? I think I remember needing to ask for medium or more in Paris to get what I expected for medium rare? A fair amount of differences in food safety practices has to do with where cleanliness is done. For example, I'm told European eggs are usually not industrially washed, so you can leave them on the counter, but you can only do that when laying is clean. In the US, laying is dirty, so eggs are industrially washed and must be refrigerated. Both systems work, but you have to be careful about comparing steps in the middle.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  The FDA mandates any cooked steak be cooked up to 145° F, which is medium. I imagine many steakhouses don't strictly follow this, but I expect that even a rare steak ordered most places comes out medium rare at best.
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    > I imagine many steakhouses don't strictly follow this .. > I expect that even a rare steak ordered most places comes out medium rare at best Your speculation does not even remotely match reality in the US, nor are you factually correct. The FDA recommends 145* for beef, it does not mandate it. And I've never been to a restaurant anywhere in the US that refused to serve a steak at 125 if so ordered.
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      I know that various government organizations say that 145°F is the minimal safe temperature for a steak, and I know that health inspectors check that food has a safe internal temperature. I assumed this was the FDA, though seem to be wrong about that, and that health inspectors use the published temperature for ensuring a safe internal temperature. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is a mandated temperature and I'm pretty sure it's well over what would be rare.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        It's not mandated. You are wrong. Otherwise every restaurant serving a hamburger would have to be shut down. The FDA has charts that simplify and explain how heat and time will kill pathogens and result in safe food. This is information meant for consumers, not restaurants, which have way different requirements that are meant to produce safe operating and serving environments, so that you don't have to rely on overcooking your meat to ensure food safety. Bringing unground beef to 145 is ONE of those values, but the temp changes based on type of food and the FDA is also open that there are other ways to make sure your food is safe and that lower temps for longer are plenty sufficient. Restaurants then have a bit of fine print on their menu or somewhere that says "Eating raw or undercooked meat/eggs/shellfish can cause illness" and you can then order an undercooked food item.
        jefftk 4y ago
        I think that may not be true? One factor that further complicates the medium-rare burger issue is the fact that serving undercooked meat contaminated with E. coli is technically illegal under federal law. Even if a consumer orders their burger medium-rare, the restaurant is breaking the law if that burger happens to have E. coli in it. -- https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/06/rare-burgers/#:~:text=One%20factor%20that,coli%20in%20it https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/06/rare-burgers/#:~:text....
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        From that very article: "The federal food code allows restaurants to serve undercooked burgers as long as they have a clear written warning, such as a statement on the menu, regarding the dangers of eating raw or undercooked meat. " That's as plain as day that there is no mandate to serve steak/burger at the 145 (for steak) or 165 (for ground beef) recommended internal temps. I wish that article cited its sources for the claims it makes. It's possible that the actual law prohibits knowingly serving contaminated beef, instead of it just happening due to supplier contamination. For reference, consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Jack_in_the_Box_E._coli_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Jack_in_the_Box_E._coli_o... That was in 1993, so maybe the "illegal to serve beef with e. coli" is from newer legislation but notice Jack in the Box was not put on trial for any federal crimes.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    You're very mistaken. FDA guidelines are just that, not mandates, and they're largely aimed at the lowest common denominator of what some teenage idiot will do in a chain restaurant kitchen. Culturally older folks in the US are likely to prefer meat with little to no pink, so you will find a bias that direction in some restaurants. A proper fine dining establishment however will have zero problem giving you exactly what you ask for with a steak, including blue/pittsburg rare. I wouldn't say tartar is popular but it's not an uncommon site on an upscale menu.
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      I live in a place where a form of steak tartar is a common local delicacy but no restaurant I'm aware of sells it because it wouldn't pass a health inspection. Health inspections aren't national, so maybe someplace does allow steak tartar, but many have some kind of mandated temperature.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
        I'm not aware of any place that has a ban on tartar, just it isn't common outside of continental style fining dining. I've certainly had it in several states, more than I can remember. I generally only order it at places that are breaking down their own primals and where it's clear they have attention to sanitation.
    - messe 4y ago
      > Culturally older folks in the US are likely to prefer meat with little to no pink Not just in the US. I’m from Ireland and my grandmother was horrified at LIDL advert showing a should of beef cooked medium rare, going so far as to call it raw.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Eggs in Mexico are also not washed and can be kept at room temperature. Not sure how they manage laying.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    I adore Mexico but knowledge of food safety is very much lacking there, and a depressingly common attitude is that getting parasites occasionally is just part of life. With the friends and families I've stayed with down there, pretty much all fresh produce and meat is disinfected before cooking, as surface contamination is definitely typical.
  - kristjansson 4y ago
    Presumably like the UK? Unwashed eggs keep at room temp, but washed eggs need to be refrigerated.
- rootw0rm 4y ago
  here in the US i have to order my steaks rare and emphasize that i want it bloody to have even the remotest prospect of getting a steak that's not cooked more than medium rare
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    This is probably because American restaurants are accustomed to dealing with idiots who say they want their steak "rare" because they heard that in a movie once, but become irate and send the steak back when they see a hint of pink.

Isn't US rare more cooked than the rest of the world? I think I remember needing to ask for medium or more in Paris to get what I expected for medium rare? A fair amount of differences in food safety practices has to do with where cleanliness is done. For example, I'm told European eggs are usually not industrially washed, so you can leave them on the counter, but you can only do that when laying is clean. In the US, laying is dirty, so eggs are industrially washed and must be refrigerated. Both systems work, but you have to be careful about comparing steps in the middle.

boomboomsubban 4y ago
The FDA mandates any cooked steak be cooked up to 145° F, which is medium. I imagine many steakhouses don't strictly follow this, but I expect that even a rare steak ordered most places comes out medium rare at best.
- happyopossum 4y ago
  > I imagine many steakhouses don't strictly follow this .. > I expect that even a rare steak ordered most places comes out medium rare at best Your speculation does not even remotely match reality in the US, nor are you factually correct. The FDA recommends 145* for beef, it does not mandate it. And I've never been to a restaurant anywhere in the US that refused to serve a steak at 125 if so ordered.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    I know that various government organizations say that 145°F is the minimal safe temperature for a steak, and I know that health inspectors check that food has a safe internal temperature. I assumed this was the FDA, though seem to be wrong about that, and that health inspectors use the published temperature for ensuring a safe internal temperature. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is a mandated temperature and I'm pretty sure it's well over what would be rare.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      It's not mandated. You are wrong. Otherwise every restaurant serving a hamburger would have to be shut down. The FDA has charts that simplify and explain how heat and time will kill pathogens and result in safe food. This is information meant for consumers, not restaurants, which have way different requirements that are meant to produce safe operating and serving environments, so that you don't have to rely on overcooking your meat to ensure food safety. Bringing unground beef to 145 is ONE of those values, but the temp changes based on type of food and the FDA is also open that there are other ways to make sure your food is safe and that lower temps for longer are plenty sufficient. Restaurants then have a bit of fine print on their menu or somewhere that says "Eating raw or undercooked meat/eggs/shellfish can cause illness" and you can then order an undercooked food item.
      - jefftk 4y ago
        I think that may not be true? One factor that further complicates the medium-rare burger issue is the fact that serving undercooked meat contaminated with E. coli is technically illegal under federal law. Even if a consumer orders their burger medium-rare, the restaurant is breaking the law if that burger happens to have E. coli in it. -- https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/06/rare-burgers/#:~:text=One%20factor%20that,coli%20in%20it https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/06/rare-burgers/#:~:text....
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        From that very article: "The federal food code allows restaurants to serve undercooked burgers as long as they have a clear written warning, such as a statement on the menu, regarding the dangers of eating raw or undercooked meat. " That's as plain as day that there is no mandate to serve steak/burger at the 145 (for steak) or 165 (for ground beef) recommended internal temps. I wish that article cited its sources for the claims it makes. It's possible that the actual law prohibits knowingly serving contaminated beef, instead of it just happening due to supplier contamination. For reference, consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Jack_in_the_Box_E._coli_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Jack_in_the_Box_E._coli_o... That was in 1993, so maybe the "illegal to serve beef with e. coli" is from newer legislation but notice Jack in the Box was not put on trial for any federal crimes.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  You're very mistaken. FDA guidelines are just that, not mandates, and they're largely aimed at the lowest common denominator of what some teenage idiot will do in a chain restaurant kitchen. Culturally older folks in the US are likely to prefer meat with little to no pink, so you will find a bias that direction in some restaurants. A proper fine dining establishment however will have zero problem giving you exactly what you ask for with a steak, including blue/pittsburg rare. I wouldn't say tartar is popular but it's not an uncommon site on an upscale menu.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    I live in a place where a form of steak tartar is a common local delicacy but no restaurant I'm aware of sells it because it wouldn't pass a health inspection. Health inspections aren't national, so maybe someplace does allow steak tartar, but many have some kind of mandated temperature.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
      I'm not aware of any place that has a ban on tartar, just it isn't common outside of continental style fining dining. I've certainly had it in several states, more than I can remember. I generally only order it at places that are breaking down their own primals and where it's clear they have attention to sanitation.
  - messe 4y ago
    > Culturally older folks in the US are likely to prefer meat with little to no pink Not just in the US. I’m from Ireland and my grandmother was horrified at LIDL advert showing a should of beef cooked medium rare, going so far as to call it raw.
AlexandrB 4y ago
Eggs in Mexico are also not washed and can be kept at room temperature. Not sure how they manage laying.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  I adore Mexico but knowledge of food safety is very much lacking there, and a depressingly common attitude is that getting parasites occasionally is just part of life. With the friends and families I've stayed with down there, pretty much all fresh produce and meat is disinfected before cooking, as surface contamination is definitely typical.
- kristjansson 4y ago
  Presumably like the UK? Unwashed eggs keep at room temp, but washed eggs need to be refrigerated.
rootw0rm 4y ago
here in the US i have to order my steaks rare and emphasize that i want it bloody to have even the remotest prospect of getting a steak that's not cooked more than medium rare
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  This is probably because American restaurants are accustomed to dealing with idiots who say they want their steak "rare" because they heard that in a movie once, but become irate and send the steak back when they see a hint of pink.