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> This is so awesome for two reasons, Postgress isn't exactly easy to setup for tutorial level usage, "apt-get install postgresql-X" or installing Postgres.app

> This is so awesome for two reasons, Postgress isn't exactly easy to setup for tutorial level usage, "apt-get install postgresql-X" or installing Postgres.app has always worked perfectly. what sort of troubles do you run into?

zachrose 4y ago
Imagine wanting to learn Postgres but not knowing how to use a package manager, for example
- konart 4y ago
  Is this even a possibility?
  - afavour 4y ago
    1000%. Lots of people want to do data analysis, learn SQL, all that kind of stuff, without having to learn a load of other unrelated development crap. Think of all the people out there using Excel who want to take the next step.
    - l2k34j1l2k34jj1 4y ago
      After browsing this site for a couple of years, I made an account to reply to your comment and say, "This is exactly right" lol. I'm a teacher who uses Excel for basic stuff (power query, pivot tables), but I'm also using Excel as a "database", which is obviously not a good idea. So here I am trying to take the next step and learn SQL along with good database design, but learning these things through Postgres is really not appropriate for someone like me. I think I have to swallow my pride and start with Access or something.
      - konart 4y ago
        You may want to try https://dbeaver.io/ https://dbeaver.io/ + SQLLight for the start. You just download binary for your OS, create a db as described here (https://www.sqlite.org/quickstart.html https://www.sqlite.org/quickstart.html) and then connect to it with dbeaver. This is more the enough to get familiar with SQL.
      - afavour 4y ago
        No shame in using Access! It's actually part of how I got my start in tech. Started with an Access database, started writing macros for it in VBA, then started writing VB.NET, then convinced a higher up to give me access to a SQL Server database. I was in an industry with an absurd number of boilerplate forms that needed to be printed and the ability to create Access forms that automated all the manual filling out coworkers were doing felt like magic. Postgres doesn't really have an equivalent of that.
  - simonw 4y ago
    Yes. See this survey on Twitter from the other day - LOADS of "React" developers (aka front-end developers) are deterred from learning more about backend programming due to friction like this. https://twitter.com/rachelnabors/status/1558888478955421697 https://twitter.com/rachelnabors/status/1558888478955421697
    - groffee 4y ago
      LOADS of React "developers"
    - konart 4y ago
      I still kind of lost here. I know this much about frontend development too but I was sure that you still need a package manager to install your npm\yarn and other tools. PS: Obviously you can live without one. Regardless of being backend\frontend developer. PPS: and honestly, how can you be scared of postgresql and co. after webpack? If you can actually understand this crap postgres setup should be to easy for you.
      - josephg 4y ago
        > If you can actually understand this crap postgres setup should be to easy for you. You can figure almost anything out if you spend enough time reading documentation and noodling with it. I'd still rather spend that time solving my actual problem.
      - simonw 4y ago
        Yeah I personally find Webpack a whole lot scarier than PostgreSQL / package managers, but that's down to my previous career experience. Really the key thing here is that learning new things is hard, and anything that can be done to remove potential roadblocks is worthwhile. I've talked to so many people who were put off learning Python because they couldn't get to a working development environment on their own.
      - powerhour 4y ago
        You don't really need webpack or etc for this, you can just hit some page that hosts the wasm already.
  - trissylegs 4y ago
    People who come from Windows + MSSQL world might not have touched a package manager before and want to try out Postgres.
NeutralForest 4y ago
Honestly not my experience, if you have postgresql running locally on your laptop, I find upgrading versions is a pain, even with the automated scripts provided and I often run in socket issues: psql is already connected, not able to connect to this or that socket,... So yeah, installing is easy and on a clean install it runs fine but it's not unusual to get pretty annoying issues over time in my experience.
- mike_hearn 4y ago
  But presumably none of those issues is fixed by using WASM in a browser.
  - NeutralForest 4y ago
    They aren't but they probably won't appear user-side, the companies will most likely have to deal with their servers, fix those issues and the users can enjoy not thinking about that when they're trying PostgreSQL online.
simonw 4y ago
I run into problems with the next steps: now you have to create a database, create a user, grant that user access to the database, setup credentials and start using them. This isn't impossible - I can do it if I consult my notes - but it has enough steps where something might go wrong that it's a pretty high friction process for newcomers.
- groffee 4y ago
  > I run into problems with the next steps: now you have to create a database, create a user, grant that user access to the database, setup credentials and start using them. That's like complaining you need to break eggs when you want to make an omelette.
  - josephg 4y ago
    Being necessary and being exhausting aren't mutually exclusive qualities. But - why are the steps needed to create a database and setup credentials such a complex, manual process anyway? Why can't all those steps just be automated by a helper script that ships with postgres? I reach for sqlite whenever I introduce SQL to people because its so much easier to get started with sqlite.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      The reason that I reach for MySQL when introducing people to SQL is the formatted output, with nice tables and column names. Is there a simple way to get similar output with SQLite?
      - josephg 4y ago
        Yep! Just set sqlite into table mode: sqlite> .mode table sqlite> select * from example; +-----+----------+ | id | foo | +-----+----------+ | 123 | afsd | +-----+----------+ SQLite also has CSV, JSON, HTML and markdown modes - which is pretty neat!

zachrose 4y ago

Imagine wanting to learn Postgres but not knowing how to use a package manager, for example

konart 4y ago
Is this even a possibility?
- afavour 4y ago
  1000%. Lots of people want to do data analysis, learn SQL, all that kind of stuff, without having to learn a load of other unrelated development crap. Think of all the people out there using Excel who want to take the next step.
  - l2k34j1l2k34jj1 4y ago
    After browsing this site for a couple of years, I made an account to reply to your comment and say, "This is exactly right" lol. I'm a teacher who uses Excel for basic stuff (power query, pivot tables), but I'm also using Excel as a "database", which is obviously not a good idea. So here I am trying to take the next step and learn SQL along with good database design, but learning these things through Postgres is really not appropriate for someone like me. I think I have to swallow my pride and start with Access or something.
    - konart 4y ago
      You may want to try https://dbeaver.io/ https://dbeaver.io/ + SQLLight for the start. You just download binary for your OS, create a db as described here (https://www.sqlite.org/quickstart.html https://www.sqlite.org/quickstart.html) and then connect to it with dbeaver. This is more the enough to get familiar with SQL.
    - afavour 4y ago
      No shame in using Access! It's actually part of how I got my start in tech. Started with an Access database, started writing macros for it in VBA, then started writing VB.NET, then convinced a higher up to give me access to a SQL Server database. I was in an industry with an absurd number of boilerplate forms that needed to be printed and the ability to create Access forms that automated all the manual filling out coworkers were doing felt like magic. Postgres doesn't really have an equivalent of that.
- simonw 4y ago
  Yes. See this survey on Twitter from the other day - LOADS of "React" developers (aka front-end developers) are deterred from learning more about backend programming due to friction like this. https://twitter.com/rachelnabors/status/1558888478955421697 https://twitter.com/rachelnabors/status/1558888478955421697
  - groffee 4y ago
    LOADS of React "developers"
  - konart 4y ago
    I still kind of lost here. I know this much about frontend development too but I was sure that you still need a package manager to install your npm\yarn and other tools. PS: Obviously you can live without one. Regardless of being backend\frontend developer. PPS: and honestly, how can you be scared of postgresql and co. after webpack? If you can actually understand this crap postgres setup should be to easy for you.
    - josephg 4y ago
      > If you can actually understand this crap postgres setup should be to easy for you. You can figure almost anything out if you spend enough time reading documentation and noodling with it. I'd still rather spend that time solving my actual problem.
    - simonw 4y ago
      Yeah I personally find Webpack a whole lot scarier than PostgreSQL / package managers, but that's down to my previous career experience. Really the key thing here is that learning new things is hard, and anything that can be done to remove potential roadblocks is worthwhile. I've talked to so many people who were put off learning Python because they couldn't get to a working development environment on their own.
    - powerhour 4y ago
      You don't really need webpack or etc for this, you can just hit some page that hosts the wasm already.
- trissylegs 4y ago
  People who come from Windows + MSSQL world might not have touched a package manager before and want to try out Postgres.

NeutralForest 4y ago

Honestly not my experience, if you have postgresql running locally on your laptop, I find upgrading versions is a pain, even with the automated scripts provided and I often run in socket issues: psql is already connected, not able to connect to this or that socket,... So yeah, installing is easy and on a clean install it runs fine but it's not unusual to get pretty annoying issues over time in my experience.

mike_hearn 4y ago
But presumably none of those issues is fixed by using WASM in a browser.
- NeutralForest 4y ago
  They aren't but they probably won't appear user-side, the companies will most likely have to deal with their servers, fix those issues and the users can enjoy not thinking about that when they're trying PostgreSQL online.

simonw 4y ago

I run into problems with the next steps: now you have to create a database, create a user, grant that user access to the database, setup credentials and start using them. This isn't impossible - I can do it if I consult my notes - but it has enough steps where something might go wrong that it's a pretty high friction process for newcomers.

groffee 4y ago
> I run into problems with the next steps: now you have to create a database, create a user, grant that user access to the database, setup credentials and start using them. That's like complaining you need to break eggs when you want to make an omelette.
- josephg 4y ago
  Being necessary and being exhausting aren't mutually exclusive qualities. But - why are the steps needed to create a database and setup credentials such a complex, manual process anyway? Why can't all those steps just be automated by a helper script that ships with postgres? I reach for sqlite whenever I introduce SQL to people because its so much easier to get started with sqlite.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    The reason that I reach for MySQL when introducing people to SQL is the formatted output, with nice tables and column names. Is there a simple way to get similar output with SQLite?
    - josephg 4y ago
      Yep! Just set sqlite into table mode: sqlite> .mode table sqlite> select * from example; +-----+----------+ | id | foo | +-----+----------+ | 123 | afsd | +-----+----------+ SQLite also has CSV, JSON, HTML and markdown modes - which is pretty neat!