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Appreciate it! And I know ... I feel like we're really hitting a watershed moment with ML/DL. It looks like artists on DeviantArt have already objected to AI-ge

Appreciate it! And I know ... I feel like we're really hitting a watershed moment with ML/DL. It looks like artists on DeviantArt have already objected to AI-generated art being allowed on the website or suggested a mandatory watermark at the very least. A very interesting time we're living in

abriosi 4y ago
I understand that artists are scared. Personally I look at it as freedom. Having a tool like this in your artists toolkit will augment performance by a stretch
- SleekEagle 4y ago
  And, of course, these models learn in part from the art generated by these artists. If we stop having humans create art, we're no longer generating data to train the next generation of models and so in some sense the "creativity" of these models would seem to necessarily be hindered.
  - Baeocystin 4y ago
    Don't you think that the selection event that occurs when human minds choose exactly what to use and post for others to see will continue pushing things forward, even if what's driving the brush strokes changes a bit?
Bluecobra 4y ago
Seems a bit daft to me. Who are they to say that AI generated art isn't art? Couldn't you say the brush has been replaced keystrokes? Someone still needs to type in inputs and decide what is good/bad. I can understand banning bots that are automatically generating/uploading stuff. Also I wonder how they can prove if a human vs. AI made something if the quality is good enough.
- SleekEagle 4y ago
  I think for a creative website like that is intended to showcase artists it makes sense. Unfortunately I don't think there's much they can do about losing in the market to text-to-image models in the long run... the costs are essentially zero
- rchaud 4y ago
  Who's to say a monkey picking stocks by throwing darts at a wall can't be a portfolio manager? "AI Art" all looks the same to me. Just enough fuzziness in the style so you can't see the hard edges of what they copied, or rather indexed in memory as part of the training dataset, then created a small variation of that. That might be good enough for replacing Pexels, Unsplash or any of those stock photo sites that blogs pull from. But not much else.
  - axg11 4y ago
    You're going to be proven wrong in weeks to months. Just a couple of years ago the consensus was that DALL-E/Imagen/Stable Diffusion quality image generation was impossible. Now it's very real and quality is improving every month.
    - SleekEagle 4y ago
      This is the first time I've seen Stable diffusion. Is it a new model or diffusion paradigm?
      - lucidrains 4y ago
        It is from the Heidelberg giants, Patrick Esser and Robin Rombach They continued building off their latent diffusion direction (encode with vqgan-vae and then diffusion in latent space) All roads lead to rome https://github.com/CompVis/stable-diffusion https://github.com/CompVis/stable-diffusion https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10752 https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10752
        4y ago
TulliusCicero 4y ago
How would you even enforce a mandatory watermark? How do you prove the work was AI-generated, at least for ones with no obvious flaws?
- SleekEagle 4y ago
  Exactly, it's just not feasible. Maybe they will train a discriminator to determine which ones are generated, but I don't think that would work very well. Also, DALL-E 2 images come with a watermark but I'm pretty sure there are already tools to remove that...
  - mlsu 4y ago
    Imagine if they did manage to train a good discriminator! That would lead to even higher quality images. I support this effort.
    - SleekEagle 4y ago
      Haha great point! AI always wins
    - stu2b50 4y ago
      Creating a GAN feedback loop in real life
    - bongoman37 4y ago
Baeocystin 4y ago
I remember the stink-eye cast by (some) artists who grew up with traditional media at how digital painting didn't count, and was somehow 'cheating'. As if the masters of the past wouldn't have loved having layers and control-z! Same situation now. I know working artists thrilled with the idea of being able to iterate in hours what previously would have taken weeks to test composition, form, and the like as they focus in on what they have in mind. I can't wait to see what they come up with.
- acomjean 4y ago
  I think Digital media is ok for most artists. Almost all the commercial science visualization folks are using it (based on a web-mini conference panel), and a fair number of artist in the nonprofit I help out with use digital tools. I think this is different than machine generated art. I know a few of us who have dabbled in creating procedurally generated art have found it fun and useful for some things, but kinda soulless, and less satisfying. AI art gets around that by using huge training sets of human generated stuff and mimicking. Its good and getting better, but its not like you get exactly what you had envisioned (though you get what you asked for)..
O__________O 4y ago
Do you have a source for the claim artist on DeviantArt (in any significant form) are making demands related to ML generated text-to-images? (Few quick Google searches turned up nothing.)
- SleekEagle 4y ago
  Maybe I'm wrong that it was DeviantArt, but I read something about this. Sorry I don't have a source, I should've checked before mentioning it. The closest thing I could find were rules only for specific groups! https://www.deviantart.com/rtnightmare/journal/New-Group-Rule-No-AI-Art-Allowed-925379375 https://www.deviantart.com/rtnightmare/journal/New-Group-Rul...
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Thanks, appears one of the nine admins posted a message to a group that has less than two hundred members; to me, that neither significant, nor representative of DeviantArt. Also appears they got push back from the group. While I didn’t review much of the “art” from the group, looked like clip art memes with text; if so, little odd that admin would take issue with anything being made using text-to-image generated art.

abriosi 4y ago

I understand that artists are scared. Personally I look at it as freedom. Having a tool like this in your artists toolkit will augment performance by a stretch

SleekEagle 4y ago
And, of course, these models learn in part from the art generated by these artists. If we stop having humans create art, we're no longer generating data to train the next generation of models and so in some sense the "creativity" of these models would seem to necessarily be hindered.
- Baeocystin 4y ago
  Don't you think that the selection event that occurs when human minds choose exactly what to use and post for others to see will continue pushing things forward, even if what's driving the brush strokes changes a bit?

Bluecobra 4y ago

Seems a bit daft to me. Who are they to say that AI generated art isn't art? Couldn't you say the brush has been replaced keystrokes? Someone still needs to type in inputs and decide what is good/bad. I can understand banning bots that are automatically generating/uploading stuff. Also I wonder how they can prove if a human vs. AI made something if the quality is good enough.

SleekEagle 4y ago
I think for a creative website like that is intended to showcase artists it makes sense. Unfortunately I don't think there's much they can do about losing in the market to text-to-image models in the long run... the costs are essentially zero
rchaud 4y ago
Who's to say a monkey picking stocks by throwing darts at a wall can't be a portfolio manager? "AI Art" all looks the same to me. Just enough fuzziness in the style so you can't see the hard edges of what they copied, or rather indexed in memory as part of the training dataset, then created a small variation of that. That might be good enough for replacing Pexels, Unsplash or any of those stock photo sites that blogs pull from. But not much else.
- axg11 4y ago
  You're going to be proven wrong in weeks to months. Just a couple of years ago the consensus was that DALL-E/Imagen/Stable Diffusion quality image generation was impossible. Now it's very real and quality is improving every month.
  - SleekEagle 4y ago
    This is the first time I've seen Stable diffusion. Is it a new model or diffusion paradigm?
    - lucidrains 4y ago
      It is from the Heidelberg giants, Patrick Esser and Robin Rombach They continued building off their latent diffusion direction (encode with vqgan-vae and then diffusion in latent space) All roads lead to rome https://github.com/CompVis/stable-diffusion https://github.com/CompVis/stable-diffusion https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10752 https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10752
      - 4y ago

TulliusCicero 4y ago

How would you even enforce a mandatory watermark? How do you prove the work was AI-generated, at least for ones with no obvious flaws?

SleekEagle 4y ago
Exactly, it's just not feasible. Maybe they will train a discriminator to determine which ones are generated, but I don't think that would work very well. Also, DALL-E 2 images come with a watermark but I'm pretty sure there are already tools to remove that...
- mlsu 4y ago
  Imagine if they did manage to train a good discriminator! That would lead to even higher quality images. I support this effort.
  - SleekEagle 4y ago
    Haha great point! AI always wins
  - stu2b50 4y ago
    Creating a GAN feedback loop in real life
  - bongoman37 4y ago

Baeocystin 4y ago

I remember the stink-eye cast by (some) artists who grew up with traditional media at how digital painting didn't count, and was somehow 'cheating'. As if the masters of the past wouldn't have loved having layers and control-z! Same situation now. I know working artists thrilled with the idea of being able to iterate in hours what previously would have taken weeks to test composition, form, and the like as they focus in on what they have in mind. I can't wait to see what they come up with.

acomjean 4y ago
I think Digital media is ok for most artists. Almost all the commercial science visualization folks are using it (based on a web-mini conference panel), and a fair number of artist in the nonprofit I help out with use digital tools. I think this is different than machine generated art. I know a few of us who have dabbled in creating procedurally generated art have found it fun and useful for some things, but kinda soulless, and less satisfying. AI art gets around that by using huge training sets of human generated stuff and mimicking. Its good and getting better, but its not like you get exactly what you had envisioned (though you get what you asked for)..

O__________O 4y ago

Do you have a source for the claim artist on DeviantArt (in any significant form) are making demands related to ML generated text-to-images? (Few quick Google searches turned up nothing.)

SleekEagle 4y ago
Maybe I'm wrong that it was DeviantArt, but I read something about this. Sorry I don't have a source, I should've checked before mentioning it. The closest thing I could find were rules only for specific groups! https://www.deviantart.com/rtnightmare/journal/New-Group-Rule-No-AI-Art-Allowed-925379375 https://www.deviantart.com/rtnightmare/journal/New-Group-Rul...
- O__________O 4y ago
  Thanks, appears one of the nine admins posted a message to a group that has less than two hundred members; to me, that neither significant, nor representative of DeviantArt. Also appears they got push back from the group. While I didn’t review much of the “art” from the group, looked like clip art memes with text; if so, little odd that admin would take issue with anything being made using text-to-image generated art.