4 ms·

I don't understand this. Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? Especially if it's not enforced in any way. What are

by jraph 4y ago

I don't understand this. Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? Especially if it's not enforced in any way. What are the psychological or social mechanisms behind this? I'm rather of the kind who don't like to be told what I should do so I can't relate much. (I'd appreciate it if people would tell me they would be pleased to see me and that could actually make me come, but that's different than some emotionless guideline)

blairbeckwith 4y ago
Lots of people – even very smart people – like guidance around what expectations are. This can be doubly true in some environments, like certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see. As one example, consider the "unlimited vacation" policy and pushback around those. Sure, the official policy is unlimited, but try taking more vacation than your manager wishes you would and see how that affects your next performance review.
- jraph 4y ago
  > certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see Okay. I've not experienced this situation indeed. Official policy / stated expectations has always matched actual expectations perfectly well wherever I worked, to the best of my knowledge. A difference there must be a mess to handle indeed.
ModernMech 4y ago
> Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? You might think that the people who get to Google are independent thinkers, but it's quite the opposite. Look at it this way: they spend 12 years in primary and secondary education being told what to do, and they study standardized tests to advance to the next stage of their education at a university. They spend 4+ years there, all the while taking tests and exams and going through courses where again they are told exactly what to do every step of the way, with granular feedback as to how they are meeting the standards. Then upon graduating with a degree they put their knowledge to use by studying for what is essentially yet another entrance exam into Google. The person who follows this kind of trajectory hasn't had an opportunity for truly independent thought probably their entire life. They are conditioned to follow guidelines, and the first questions they'll ask for any task are: "Where is the rubric? What are the rules? How will I be evaluated?" because they know how to succeed when there are guidelines and rules and procedures to follow. Take away those, and they will flail. I've seen it many times.
- p1esk 4y ago
  As opposed to what people? High school dropouts?
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    People who finished high school and/or community college, boot camp grads, developers with experience, people joining the field later in life, etc. These people are not represented and the standford college grad is over represented
  - infamouscow 4y ago
    Directors can waive hiring requirements in most cases. Several high school dropouts with meaningful Linux kernel contributions have received job offers from FAANG without talking to a recruiter or answering a leetcode question.
- jraph 4y ago
  You are mostly describing my education curriculum though (except the 3 years of PhD, but I'm not sure they fundamentally changed me on this aspect - I already wanted to be left alone back then, and was by the way not totally satisfied on this matter).
omoikane 4y ago
The "guidance" bit in this context is tied to "when they should be in the office". For the people who prefer to be in office a few days per week, it would be nice if those few days also overlaps with the in-office days for the people they wanted to meet in person, and it's easier to make this kind of coordination at a higher level. Thus management guidance is basically "let's pick these day(s) of the week where our team would try to be in the office together".
- jraph 4y ago
  Indeed, makes sense.

by jraph 4y ago

blairbeckwith 4y ago

Lots of people – even very smart people – like guidance around what expectations are. This can be doubly true in some environments, like certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see. As one example, consider the "unlimited vacation" policy and pushback around those. Sure, the official policy is unlimited, but try taking more vacation than your manager wishes you would and see how that affects your next performance review.

jraph 4y ago
> certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see Okay. I've not experienced this situation indeed. Official policy / stated expectations has always matched actual expectations perfectly well wherever I worked, to the best of my knowledge. A difference there must be a mess to handle indeed.

ModernMech 4y ago

> Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? You might think that the people who get to Google are independent thinkers, but it's quite the opposite. Look at it this way: they spend 12 years in primary and secondary education being told what to do, and they study standardized tests to advance to the next stage of their education at a university. They spend 4+ years there, all the while taking tests and exams and going through courses where again they are told exactly what to do every step of the way, with granular feedback as to how they are meeting the standards. Then upon graduating with a degree they put their knowledge to use by studying for what is essentially yet another entrance exam into Google. The person who follows this kind of trajectory hasn't had an opportunity for truly independent thought probably their entire life. They are conditioned to follow guidelines, and the first questions they'll ask for any task are: "Where is the rubric? What are the rules? How will I be evaluated?" because they know how to succeed when there are guidelines and rules and procedures to follow. Take away those, and they will flail. I've seen it many times.

p1esk 4y ago
As opposed to what people? High school dropouts?
- ipaddr 4y ago
  People who finished high school and/or community college, boot camp grads, developers with experience, people joining the field later in life, etc. These people are not represented and the standford college grad is over represented
- infamouscow 4y ago
  Directors can waive hiring requirements in most cases. Several high school dropouts with meaningful Linux kernel contributions have received job offers from FAANG without talking to a recruiter or answering a leetcode question.
jraph 4y ago
You are mostly describing my education curriculum though (except the 3 years of PhD, but I'm not sure they fundamentally changed me on this aspect - I already wanted to be left alone back then, and was by the way not totally satisfied on this matter).

omoikane 4y ago

The "guidance" bit in this context is tied to "when they should be in the office". For the people who prefer to be in office a few days per week, it would be nice if those few days also overlaps with the in-office days for the people they wanted to meet in person, and it's easier to make this kind of coordination at a higher level. Thus management guidance is basically "let's pick these day(s) of the week where our team would try to be in the office together".

jraph 4y ago
Indeed, makes sense.