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Can someone name an example of a city that has gone bankrupt due to infrastructure costs that didn't also lose a large amount of its population or lose key loca

Can someone name an example of a city that has gone bankrupt due to infrastructure costs that didn't also lose a large amount of its population or lose key local industries?

shiftpgdn 4y ago
Detroit? The industry is still there but they've lost 50% of their population. But the whole point of the video is when you build these big suburbs and suburban development patterns you're on the hook for their cost no matter if anyone is living there or not.
- koheripbal 4y ago
  This is an odd example. Detroit literally lost hundreds of thousands of auto manufacturing jobs. The companies only remain there in a token fashion.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Detroit's population has been declining for 60 years, and the population of the Metro area is still in the millions. The city itself is at 624,177 in '20. The downfall is years and the making and has to do with more than auto manufacturing. It's not like the nearby cities stuck with a single point of failure for a century, manufacturing is big but varied and the economy diversified over time. Across the U.S. manufacturing has been sensitive to the rise of competing economies. strongtowns actually names Detroit as a very early adopter of suburban city planning and sprawl. The argument is they are in part reeling from the impact of these policies faster than other cities.
tunap 4y ago
Not a city, per se, but counties, yes. Orange County, CA circa 1994. Bonds & securities shenanigans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Citron#County_bankruptcy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Citron#County_bankruptc...
dwater 4y ago
I can't, because every American city I can think of experienced redlining and white flight, which led to the loss of population, business, and investment.
- mcdonje 4y ago
  Also, a lot of states don't allow municipalities to file for bankruptcy.
Retric 4y ago
I think that’s a rather unfair question as cities should be resilient to significant population shifts. The world isn’t constant so the inability to handle change means you already have issues. Population shifts don’t just happen in an afternoon if a city can’t deal with a 10% population decline over a decade it was already in dire straits. Pensions for example are’t inherently an issue, it’s just a debt that should have been prepaid over the ~30 years these employees where working for the city.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  It seems clear to me that a city that loses say half its population is not going to be able to just absorb that and move on. Like a large ant colony, a large number of ants are needed to support and maintain it.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Ant colonies are resiliant to large population drops. Colony size depends not just on species but also time of year and available food. As to cities, there isn’t a minimum viable size we just call tiny cities towns.
- ghaff 4y ago
  A great many US cities were losing population in the post-WWII era including some that are now regarded as "elite" coastal cities. Boston, for example, was losing population well into the nineties and, lots of universities notwithstanding, had no real major tech industry left by the time Teradyne moved out. (All the local computer companies and defense contractors were out in the suburbs/exurbs.) So some cities did weather the cycles. Others like Detroit not so much--at least outside of certain core areas.
  - agent281 4y ago
    Wouldn't these be good examples? Boston is a pre-car city that weathered population decline well. Detroit was a city that rebuilt itself around the car and experienced decline.
gnulinux 4y ago
New York City came 1-day close to declaring bankruptcy on 16 October 1975. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-night-new-york-saved-itself-from-bankruptcy https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-night-new-york-...
adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
This is made complicated because before cities go bankrupt they try to stay alive in ways that cause people and industry to leave (such as reducing school funding, reducing road maintenance, raising taxes, etc). As such, by the time the city goes bankrupt there will be other things to point to, but the underlying failure was that the city ran out of money and was trying to work around that.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And really what does bankruptcy mean for a city? It doesn't meet it's liabilities. It probably has some assets so those will be seized. That really doesn't extend to any property owned by others.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    it means that school budgets get slashed, public transit is greatly reduced, road maintenance stops etc.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    From 2008, "What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt?": * https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=60740288 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=607402...

Can someone name an example of a city that has gone bankrupt due to infrastructure costs that didn't also lose a large amount of its population or lose key local industries?

shiftpgdn 4y ago

Detroit? The industry is still there but they've lost 50% of their population. But the whole point of the video is when you build these big suburbs and suburban development patterns you're on the hook for their cost no matter if anyone is living there or not.

koheripbal 4y ago
This is an odd example. Detroit literally lost hundreds of thousands of auto manufacturing jobs. The companies only remain there in a token fashion.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Detroit's population has been declining for 60 years, and the population of the Metro area is still in the millions. The city itself is at 624,177 in '20. The downfall is years and the making and has to do with more than auto manufacturing. It's not like the nearby cities stuck with a single point of failure for a century, manufacturing is big but varied and the economy diversified over time. Across the U.S. manufacturing has been sensitive to the rise of competing economies. strongtowns actually names Detroit as a very early adopter of suburban city planning and sprawl. The argument is they are in part reeling from the impact of these policies faster than other cities.

tunap 4y ago

Not a city, per se, but counties, yes. Orange County, CA circa 1994. Bonds & securities shenanigans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Citron#County_bankruptcy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Citron#County_bankruptc...

dwater 4y ago

I can't, because every American city I can think of experienced redlining and white flight, which led to the loss of population, business, and investment.

mcdonje 4y ago
Also, a lot of states don't allow municipalities to file for bankruptcy.

Retric 4y ago

I think that’s a rather unfair question as cities should be resilient to significant population shifts. The world isn’t constant so the inability to handle change means you already have issues. Population shifts don’t just happen in an afternoon if a city can’t deal with a 10% population decline over a decade it was already in dire straits. Pensions for example are’t inherently an issue, it’s just a debt that should have been prepaid over the ~30 years these employees where working for the city.

SoftTalker 4y ago
It seems clear to me that a city that loses say half its population is not going to be able to just absorb that and move on. Like a large ant colony, a large number of ants are needed to support and maintain it.
- Retric 4y ago
  Ant colonies are resiliant to large population drops. Colony size depends not just on species but also time of year and available food. As to cities, there isn’t a minimum viable size we just call tiny cities towns.
ghaff 4y ago
A great many US cities were losing population in the post-WWII era including some that are now regarded as "elite" coastal cities. Boston, for example, was losing population well into the nineties and, lots of universities notwithstanding, had no real major tech industry left by the time Teradyne moved out. (All the local computer companies and defense contractors were out in the suburbs/exurbs.) So some cities did weather the cycles. Others like Detroit not so much--at least outside of certain core areas.
- agent281 4y ago
  Wouldn't these be good examples? Boston is a pre-car city that weathered population decline well. Detroit was a city that rebuilt itself around the car and experienced decline.

gnulinux 4y ago

New York City came 1-day close to declaring bankruptcy on 16 October 1975. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-night-new-york-saved-itself-from-bankruptcy https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-night-new-york-...

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago

This is made complicated because before cities go bankrupt they try to stay alive in ways that cause people and industry to leave (such as reducing school funding, reducing road maintenance, raising taxes, etc). As such, by the time the city goes bankrupt there will be other things to point to, but the underlying failure was that the city ran out of money and was trying to work around that.

Ekaros 4y ago
And really what does bankruptcy mean for a city? It doesn't meet it's liabilities. It probably has some assets so those will be seized. That really doesn't extend to any property owned by others.
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  it means that school budgets get slashed, public transit is greatly reduced, road maintenance stops etc.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  From 2008, "What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt?": * https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=60740288 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=607402...