7 ms·

I think we have a biological tendency to be somewhat racist, but among every person that I've met who could be classed as being marginally racist, usually they

by starkd 4y ago

I think we have a biological tendency to be somewhat racist, but among every person that I've met who could be classed as being marginally racist, usually they do not really mean the things they say. Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. I say, marginally racist, because I have never met a full-fledged racist (in U.S. here). Peronally, I think they are a very small insular group, if they exist at all.

latexr 4y ago
> Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. Daryl Davis¹, through conversation, convinced a number of Klansmen to leave and denounce the KKK. See “Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America”². ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_Courtesy:_Daryl_Davis,_Race_%26_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_Courtesy:_Daryl_Dav...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
spywaregorilla 4y ago
> Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. An exception like "oh well you're one of the good ones"? > I have never met a full-fledged racist (in U.S. here). Peronally, I think they are a very small insular group, if they exist at all. Talk to old people if you want some disappointment then.
- starkd 4y ago
  The "exceptions" is where racist attitudes get broken down. It creates the cognitive dissonance. It doesn't happen right away, but its a significant step in the right direction. Yes. This includes most "old people". A lot of the talk an jabs or using racial epithets is superficial when you get right down to it. At least, in my experience.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Well allow me to throw my two anecotes into the ring. My grandfather is an asian immigrant who dreamed of coming to the US, which he did late in life. He died in a hospital angrily denying help from black staff members. My grandmother is a sweet old italian lady. She got real mad when one of her grandkids started dating a black guy. She doesn't believe in mixed race couples / people. I'm mixed race but of course I'm "One of the good ones" largely because I'm whiteish. I assure you her liking me has not changed her general opinion at all. They're very nice at the surface level. You wouldn't expect it, but oh boy was it there an it was deep. I really, really do not believe that the racial epithets are superficial. It's not a uniquely old person problem by any definition, but it's extremely common.
    - starkd 4y ago
      My main concern is that people are not held back because of it. At some point, everyone needs to develop an innate resiliance (a thick skin) in how they deal with negativity. I think that, in the U.S. at least, there is a greater danger of a social thought-police where people feel like they can't say what they think. When my grandmother was dying in a hospital, she had some dementia. I don't think she ever uttered a racial epithet to anyone in her whole life, but one day a hospital worker was trying to clean her room up and making a bit of a commotion, she sat up and told him to go away, that she did not like black people. We apolized to the man who seemed to understand the situation. My point is that people are complicated, sometimes they say things on reflex they would not say in a healthier more positive frame of mind.
      - alphabettsy 4y ago
        > greater danger of social thought-police People are concerned about existing as they were born as well. I think those people are less concerned about whether or not your grandma can be honest about her feelings towards black people. > I don’t think she uttered a racial epithet to anyone in her whole life I’ll start by saying this is an assumption and likely untrue. As previously stated, lots of people who are racist are never overtly racist.
christophilus 4y ago
They exist. I once helped a needy young man in Seattle by taking him to get some food. The lady at the checkout counter was black, and oh, man did he spout some shit. It turned out he was a legit neonazi. I actually picked his brain for quite a while to get an idea of the “why” behind things. Anyway, this experience is the reason I roll my eyes when someone calls ____ a nazi. There are legit nazis in the world, and they’re a truly unpleasant bunch.
- starkd 4y ago
  I don't deny they exist, but they have been marginalized in society. They don't hold any significant power in terms of holding people back.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    The problem isn't overt racists so much as subtle, persistent bias, which absolutely holds people back in very significant ways. See my comment about my grandmother. And... unless you're in a marginalized minority group, you really aren't in a position to know how racist people are. Oh yeah, I just remembered, we also recently had a president for four years who was overly racist. Remember his attacks on Judge Curiel? Remember Mexicans "are rapists"?
    - starkd 4y ago
      Not true. Any body can understand it. It's a basic human empathy characteristic. Telling people they are not in a position to know anything about it, is merely an attempt at thought control by disregarding their opinions. It's not really a discussion.
      - tpoacher 4y ago
        Indeed. This is the fallacy of special pleading: https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special%20Pleading.html https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special%20Pleading....
      - 4y ago
foobarbecue 4y ago
Racism is often subtle and insidious. I'll never forget asking my grandma what she thought of Obama when he was running for president the first time. She said "I like his ideas, but he just doesn't... LOOK right." The dog whistle version of this, which you heard public figures using on TV, was "he doesn't look presidential."
- starkd 4y ago
  That seems like mind-reading on your part. Even if you are partially right, any individual's thoughts on this are generally more complex and likely to be expressed in different ways on any given day, and in the long term, tend to shift in ways that aren't easy to map.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    Am I missing something? Did you know my grandmother?
- bhupy 4y ago
  Even assuming that your grandma was coming from a place of racial animus (itself debatable), nobody is arguing that America is devoid of racism — there's no country on Earth that has truly eradicated racism. The real point is that the conversation you described happens ten times over in most peer developed countries. If you think it's bad that a few people say this about Obama (who ultimately was elected President twice), imagine what it's like running for office as a person of color in France, Germany, the Nordics, Japan, South Korea, or Italy — it's nigh impossible. Whereas in America, the kind of racism you're describing has been relegated to retirees and people who generally lack power, in Europe, this kind of thinking persists in board rooms, popular culture, and even the British Royal Family (just ask Meghan Markle) — institutions with real cultural influence and power. Ultimately, while racism continues to be a problem in America, it's much further along in solving that problem than pretty much any other developed country, save for maybe Canada, the UK, and ANZ.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
pixl97 4y ago
>classed as being marginally racist, usually they do not really mean the things they say. As someone that moved to a very very racist part of the US in their teens (near a sundown town), this is by far the most scary statement you could write. I believe you would be far more concerned if you understood the enormity of it when you look at it in the converse. This person you mention that creates an exception 'for one of the good ones' will also create an exception for their buddy when they lynch someone and they just forget to tell the police about it. I recommend 'Neoslavery' by Knowing Better as a little chunk of more recent American history a lot of people would like to erase. Racism runs very deep in some places. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA
- starkd 4y ago
  When is the last time a racial lynching happened that was not prosecuted or was utterly ignored by the local authorities? I don't deny such attitudes. But I would be suprised if such attitudes extended to a complete abnegation of local authority to prosecute a lynching. Even in a sundown town.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    Let's turn around and say "When was the last 'lynching' that WAS the authorities?" If George Floyd's murder had not been filmed Derek Chauvin would still be on the police force and not in prison. This is why you should watch the video attached in my previous reply. Especially in the south the local authorities were actively involved in gathering slaves (remember prison slavery is legal to this day in the US).
    - starkd 4y ago
      First, Derek Chauvin was prosecuted, and not just because there was video evidence. Every time a black person gets shot by the police (even when it is justified) we still know about it. There have been other such situations that were investigated. They are not ignored. Second, George Floyd was not "lynched". It's even debateable if there were even racial motivations to the case. He ultimately died of a fentanyl overdose, and there is video evidence he was out of control at the time. Not to excuse Chauvin, but I'm not going to try to read his mind or judge his character on the basis that "he looks like a white supremicist" sitting in court. Saying cases exist but we simply don't know about it, is dodging the question. You can't prove a negative. That's just being disingenuous. Where is the proof that lynchings are occuring but they are just being swept under the rug?
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
No, sorry, no. When you put two children together at age 3, they play together, skin color is definitely out of consideration.
rektide 4y ago
A lot of this feels too much for me, as semi-dismissive of problematic & discrimatory parts of folk. One thing that I like a lot though is, > Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. Shifting somewhat off race, one of my biggest hopes with some of the covid / work-remote urban-to-rural diapora is that- by finally having some reverse brain drain- less urban places might finally see & hear from some more diverse people. Some cultural mixing & injection of other people can (I hope) add some empathy & sense in places that have had fewer & fewer huddling together & weathering the slow-but-ever-ongoing worldwide march of economic-stratification.

by starkd 4y ago

latexr 4y ago

> Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. Daryl Davis¹, through conversation, convinced a number of Klansmen to leave and denounce the KKK. See “Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America”². ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_Courtesy:_Daryl_Davis,_Race_%26_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_Courtesy:_Daryl_Dav...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

spywaregorilla 4y ago

> Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. An exception like "oh well you're one of the good ones"? > I have never met a full-fledged racist (in U.S. here). Peronally, I think they are a very small insular group, if they exist at all. Talk to old people if you want some disappointment then.

starkd 4y ago
The "exceptions" is where racist attitudes get broken down. It creates the cognitive dissonance. It doesn't happen right away, but its a significant step in the right direction. Yes. This includes most "old people". A lot of the talk an jabs or using racial epithets is superficial when you get right down to it. At least, in my experience.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Well allow me to throw my two anecotes into the ring. My grandfather is an asian immigrant who dreamed of coming to the US, which he did late in life. He died in a hospital angrily denying help from black staff members. My grandmother is a sweet old italian lady. She got real mad when one of her grandkids started dating a black guy. She doesn't believe in mixed race couples / people. I'm mixed race but of course I'm "One of the good ones" largely because I'm whiteish. I assure you her liking me has not changed her general opinion at all. They're very nice at the surface level. You wouldn't expect it, but oh boy was it there an it was deep. I really, really do not believe that the racial epithets are superficial. It's not a uniquely old person problem by any definition, but it's extremely common.
  - starkd 4y ago
    My main concern is that people are not held back because of it. At some point, everyone needs to develop an innate resiliance (a thick skin) in how they deal with negativity. I think that, in the U.S. at least, there is a greater danger of a social thought-police where people feel like they can't say what they think. When my grandmother was dying in a hospital, she had some dementia. I don't think she ever uttered a racial epithet to anyone in her whole life, but one day a hospital worker was trying to clean her room up and making a bit of a commotion, she sat up and told him to go away, that she did not like black people. We apolized to the man who seemed to understand the situation. My point is that people are complicated, sometimes they say things on reflex they would not say in a healthier more positive frame of mind.
    - alphabettsy 4y ago
      > greater danger of social thought-police People are concerned about existing as they were born as well. I think those people are less concerned about whether or not your grandma can be honest about her feelings towards black people. > I don’t think she uttered a racial epithet to anyone in her whole life I’ll start by saying this is an assumption and likely untrue. As previously stated, lots of people who are racist are never overtly racist.

christophilus 4y ago

They exist. I once helped a needy young man in Seattle by taking him to get some food. The lady at the checkout counter was black, and oh, man did he spout some shit. It turned out he was a legit neonazi. I actually picked his brain for quite a while to get an idea of the “why” behind things. Anyway, this experience is the reason I roll my eyes when someone calls ____ a nazi. There are legit nazis in the world, and they’re a truly unpleasant bunch.

starkd 4y ago
I don't deny they exist, but they have been marginalized in society. They don't hold any significant power in terms of holding people back.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  The problem isn't overt racists so much as subtle, persistent bias, which absolutely holds people back in very significant ways. See my comment about my grandmother. And... unless you're in a marginalized minority group, you really aren't in a position to know how racist people are. Oh yeah, I just remembered, we also recently had a president for four years who was overly racist. Remember his attacks on Judge Curiel? Remember Mexicans "are rapists"?
  - starkd 4y ago
    Not true. Any body can understand it. It's a basic human empathy characteristic. Telling people they are not in a position to know anything about it, is merely an attempt at thought control by disregarding their opinions. It's not really a discussion.
    - tpoacher 4y ago
      Indeed. This is the fallacy of special pleading: https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special%20Pleading.html https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special%20Pleading....
    - 4y ago

foobarbecue 4y ago

Racism is often subtle and insidious. I'll never forget asking my grandma what she thought of Obama when he was running for president the first time. She said "I like his ideas, but he just doesn't... LOOK right." The dog whistle version of this, which you heard public figures using on TV, was "he doesn't look presidential."

starkd 4y ago
That seems like mind-reading on your part. Even if you are partially right, any individual's thoughts on this are generally more complex and likely to be expressed in different ways on any given day, and in the long term, tend to shift in ways that aren't easy to map.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Am I missing something? Did you know my grandmother?
bhupy 4y ago
Even assuming that your grandma was coming from a place of racial animus (itself debatable), nobody is arguing that America is devoid of racism — there's no country on Earth that has truly eradicated racism. The real point is that the conversation you described happens ten times over in most peer developed countries. If you think it's bad that a few people say this about Obama (who ultimately was elected President twice), imagine what it's like running for office as a person of color in France, Germany, the Nordics, Japan, South Korea, or Italy — it's nigh impossible. Whereas in America, the kind of racism you're describing has been relegated to retirees and people who generally lack power, in Europe, this kind of thinking persists in board rooms, popular culture, and even the British Royal Family (just ask Meghan Markle) — institutions with real cultural influence and power. Ultimately, while racism continues to be a problem in America, it's much further along in solving that problem than pretty much any other developed country, save for maybe Canada, the UK, and ANZ.
- foobarbecue 4y ago

pixl97 4y ago

>classed as being marginally racist, usually they do not really mean the things they say. As someone that moved to a very very racist part of the US in their teens (near a sundown town), this is by far the most scary statement you could write. I believe you would be far more concerned if you understood the enormity of it when you look at it in the converse. This person you mention that creates an exception 'for one of the good ones' will also create an exception for their buddy when they lynch someone and they just forget to tell the police about it. I recommend 'Neoslavery' by Knowing Better as a little chunk of more recent American history a lot of people would like to erase. Racism runs very deep in some places. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA

starkd 4y ago
When is the last time a racial lynching happened that was not prosecuted or was utterly ignored by the local authorities? I don't deny such attitudes. But I would be suprised if such attitudes extended to a complete abnegation of local authority to prosecute a lynching. Even in a sundown town.
- pixl97 4y ago
  Let's turn around and say "When was the last 'lynching' that WAS the authorities?" If George Floyd's murder had not been filmed Derek Chauvin would still be on the police force and not in prison. This is why you should watch the video attached in my previous reply. Especially in the south the local authorities were actively involved in gathering slaves (remember prison slavery is legal to this day in the US).
  - starkd 4y ago
    First, Derek Chauvin was prosecuted, and not just because there was video evidence. Every time a black person gets shot by the police (even when it is justified) we still know about it. There have been other such situations that were investigated. They are not ignored. Second, George Floyd was not "lynched". It's even debateable if there were even racial motivations to the case. He ultimately died of a fentanyl overdose, and there is video evidence he was out of control at the time. Not to excuse Chauvin, but I'm not going to try to read his mind or judge his character on the basis that "he looks like a white supremicist" sitting in court. Saying cases exist but we simply don't know about it, is dodging the question. You can't prove a negative. That's just being disingenuous. Where is the proof that lynchings are occuring but they are just being swept under the rug?

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

No, sorry, no. When you put two children together at age 3, they play together, skin color is definitely out of consideration.

rektide 4y ago

A lot of this feels too much for me, as semi-dismissive of problematic & discrimatory parts of folk. One thing that I like a lot though is, > Nearly every one of them will create an exception once they have a reasonable conversation with someone from another race. Shifting somewhat off race, one of my biggest hopes with some of the covid / work-remote urban-to-rural diapora is that- by finally having some reverse brain drain- less urban places might finally see & hear from some more diverse people. Some cultural mixing & injection of other people can (I hope) add some empathy & sense in places that have had fewer & fewer huddling together & weathering the slow-but-ever-ongoing worldwide march of economic-stratification.