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> explains ... why Chinese dragons are considered basically good and representative of government, but the great majority (although not all) European dragons ar

> explains ... why Chinese dragons are considered basically good and representative of government, but the great majority (although not all) European dragons are evil and often represent chaos. This statement seems to make some underlying assumptions... 1. Government = good (including middle-ages monarchies) 2. The opposite of government (and particularly, existing government) is chaos. 3. It is evil to oppose the government. I wonder if these assumptions are baked in to dragon myths, or whether they're tacked on retroactively

krapp 4y ago
These assumptions are baked into Confucianism, which along with Buddhism formed the basis of Chinese philosophy and culture. I can't speak to the association between government and dragons specifically beyond the fact that dragons were associated with the Imperial family, in a way that seems to mirror the common motif throughout history of nobility claiming an association with the divine (as Chinese dragons are seen as divine/godlike entities rather than mere creatures.) Meanwhile, Western philosophy and culture are based on Christianity, in which Satan is depicted as a serpent in Genesis and a dragon in the book of Revelations. Also Greek, Roman and Norse mythologies, each of which heavily influenced Western literary canon, contain dragonlike beings representing primordial chaos, or evil monsters to be slain by the hero, such as Jormugandr and the Lernean Hydra or Typhon. And there is a common narrative thread with Western mythology called "Chaoskampf," possibly descended from a now lost proto-indo-european mythological root, which involves a storm god or sky god doing battle with and defeating a dragon that represents the primordial order before creation/the current pantheon. Traces of this can even be found in the Old Testament, with God battling and subduing Leviathan.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  But if that's the case, then these assumptions are (royal/imperial) government propaganda, with immediate political use. And people who are displeased with the current monarch (all-Chinese or part-of-China, depending on the period) would see the dragon as the disagreeable symbol of a corrupt/unjust ruler, wouldn't they?
  - krapp 4y ago
    I don't know. Do Americans see Christ as the disagreeable symbol of their corrupt and unjust rulers? The intersection of politics, religion and culture is complicated, and calling it all propaganda would probably be too reductionist. According to Wikipedia dragons as a mythological entity likely predate their use as a political symbol[0]. I do know only the Imperial house was allowed to display symbols with a five-clawed dragon. All other dragons depicted anywhere had to have fewer than five fingers. [1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon [1]https://scalar.usc.edu/works/exhibiting-historical-art/five-clawed-dragon https://scalar.usc.edu/works/exhibiting-historical-art/five-...

krapp 4y ago

These assumptions are baked into Confucianism, which along with Buddhism formed the basis of Chinese philosophy and culture. I can't speak to the association between government and dragons specifically beyond the fact that dragons were associated with the Imperial family, in a way that seems to mirror the common motif throughout history of nobility claiming an association with the divine (as Chinese dragons are seen as divine/godlike entities rather than mere creatures.) Meanwhile, Western philosophy and culture are based on Christianity, in which Satan is depicted as a serpent in Genesis and a dragon in the book of Revelations. Also Greek, Roman and Norse mythologies, each of which heavily influenced Western literary canon, contain dragonlike beings representing primordial chaos, or evil monsters to be slain by the hero, such as Jormugandr and the Lernean Hydra or Typhon. And there is a common narrative thread with Western mythology called "Chaoskampf," possibly descended from a now lost proto-indo-european mythological root, which involves a storm god or sky god doing battle with and defeating a dragon that represents the primordial order before creation/the current pantheon. Traces of this can even be found in the Old Testament, with God battling and subduing Leviathan.

einpoklum 4y ago
But if that's the case, then these assumptions are (royal/imperial) government propaganda, with immediate political use. And people who are displeased with the current monarch (all-Chinese or part-of-China, depending on the period) would see the dragon as the disagreeable symbol of a corrupt/unjust ruler, wouldn't they?
- krapp 4y ago
  I don't know. Do Americans see Christ as the disagreeable symbol of their corrupt and unjust rulers? The intersection of politics, religion and culture is complicated, and calling it all propaganda would probably be too reductionist. According to Wikipedia dragons as a mythological entity likely predate their use as a political symbol[0]. I do know only the Imperial house was allowed to display symbols with a five-clawed dragon. All other dragons depicted anywhere had to have fewer than five fingers. [1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon [1]https://scalar.usc.edu/works/exhibiting-historical-art/five-clawed-dragon https://scalar.usc.edu/works/exhibiting-historical-art/five-...