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I see this sentiment everywhere outside the tech first ecosystem. In the generalization of 'workers'/'engineers' v/s 'supervisors'/'managers', programmers are o

I see this sentiment everywhere outside the tech first ecosystem. In the generalization of 'workers'/'engineers' v/s 'supervisors'/'managers', programmers are often seen as just workers. For whatever reason, an MBA or even a BBA is seen as an officer/supervisor. Even product teams at tech first companies tend to represent this dogma. There are exceptions but the programmers are workers dogma is prevalent in this world. This is the main reason for suppressed pay for programmers and software engineers in all other industries except tech. Because of this, these other industries will never be able to catch up on the areas of hardware/software interfaces, let alone pure software craftsmanship. On the contrary, the software craftsmen are now learning the tropes of the non-software world and turning craftsmen in those areas as well. So yeah, Ford might make a fast car, they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future.

KronisLV 4y ago
> ... they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future. Software can make a lot of things better, but for whatever reason most cars end up with closed software solutions with a limited amount of updates, problems with how responsive/inefficient they are and a plethora of other complications. At that point, slapping an Android tablet on the dash for navigation might be a better idea, since at least that can be changed out or customized with relatively few issues, versus being stuck with a flawed built in system that's a black box as far as you're concerned. Alas, why even pay for that? Why not have a car with a simple dash, less electronics and simply mounts for you to bring your own. Of course, that's not the direction in which the industry seems to be headed. Now, this might be a silly comparison, but I can't help but to think of comparing a simple soviet tractor (say, a T-25 https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/T-25?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/T-25?_x_tr_sl... ) which is simple to use and repair, to something like a modern John Deere. Perhaps that's one of the better examples, where the more complex design ends up rather expensive, even if you don't need all of the features. But the former, simpler design? Well, somehow ones like that aren't manufactured much nowadays. Surely in regards to cars it should also be possible to pick the essentials (e.g. in regards to safety and security) and then offer plenty of different models, with varying different levels of technology embedded. Then again, it's easier to pump up the price if you cram more features in even in the basic models. Of course, it's not like that would be okay if those closed systems were to be replaced with open source either - since that might be a serious safety liability.
- deepGem 4y ago
  The principles behind the auto industry are primarily driven by the last motive. To pump up the price for some shitty upgrade that not many really want. It's the same core, with a few upgrades that are super cheap to manufacture. Like a dashboard change or change a knob to a button etc. It's like selling a new iPhone with just a few changes to some superficial apps such as I donno, Numbers. Agree with you on a modular car where you just let people customise and build whatever the heck they want. I even think you should be able to customize a 2 seater v/s a 4/5 seater with plenty of options.
- philistine 4y ago
  I visited my friend while he was plowing his fields, and one of his tractors was out of commission due to a broken sensor. The first thing that came out of his mouth was: I don’t hate the sensors, they saved one of my tractors from an oil leak one time. For tractors, the reason they gain features is to improve uptime, thus driving costs down. And they do.
okrad 4y ago
They touched on this in the video atop the article. Ford is heavily leaning on Google/Android to help them overhaul the in-car software experience. It would seem Ford is aware they lack in this area and have decided to outsource to the experienced craftsmen.
sangnoir 4y ago
> So yeah, Ford might make a fast car, they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future. I would kill for a "low-tech" EV - think Toyota Corolla[1], but with an electric power train. No touch screen, no "self driving" beyond lane assistance & adaptive cruise. Unfortunately, manufacturers are unwilling to start off with a low-margin products, but I believe that is the car of the future, and will sell like hot cakes. 1. An electric Ford Maverick would fit the bill too, if they don't ape Tesla's cockpit design. The Nissan Leaf is close to my ideal, but the lack of active cooling on the battery is a non-starter.
- outworlder 4y ago
  > I would kill for a "low-tech" EV - think Toyota Corolla[1], but with an electric power train. No touch screen, no "self driving" beyond lane assistance & adaptive cruise. So... a base model Nissan Leaf?
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    A Nissan leaf would be perfect if it had active battery cooling. Replacement batteries prices eye watering (relative to purchase price), and Nissan Leaf batteries lose capacity rapidly (based on older models), especially in hot climes
- Vrondi 4y ago
  This is what is desperately needed.
- deepGem 4y ago
  The main impediment for this approach is still the battery pack. Unless you can reduce the cost/kwh of batteries the corolla of the ev world won't happen. Battery costs per Kwh are on a downward trend. Tesla is probably around 100-110$ per KWh translating to about 7-8K for it's flagship 70 KWh battery pack. 7-8K in about 30K of manufacturing costs. https://electrek.co/2018/05/31/tesla-model-3-teardow-material-production-cost/ https://electrek.co/2018/05/31/tesla-model-3-teardow-materia... https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2021/12/01/are-battery-cost-improvements-still-a-big-driver-of-teslas-margins/?sh=47a89eae4ae7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2021/12/01/ar... So am not sure a low margin approach would fly right now, simply because of supply constraints for volume production. Probably at a 10M/year run rate, the economies of scale would tip in the low margin high volume favour. How would you solve this conundrum. Can you just stick to a low margin approach from day 1 ? Focus relentlessly on cost reduction in all parts of the cars except the powertrain and the battery since those are the key reliability aspects. OR May be a conventional 5 seater car is an overkill for most usage and can you instead build a version with a 35KWh battery pack but a 2 seater like a Miata. No frills, fast and safe car at nearly half the cost but am not sure if you can maintain the same range.

KronisLV 4y ago

> ... they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future. Software can make a lot of things better, but for whatever reason most cars end up with closed software solutions with a limited amount of updates, problems with how responsive/inefficient they are and a plethora of other complications. At that point, slapping an Android tablet on the dash for navigation might be a better idea, since at least that can be changed out or customized with relatively few issues, versus being stuck with a flawed built in system that's a black box as far as you're concerned. Alas, why even pay for that? Why not have a car with a simple dash, less electronics and simply mounts for you to bring your own. Of course, that's not the direction in which the industry seems to be headed. Now, this might be a silly comparison, but I can't help but to think of comparing a simple soviet tractor (say, a T-25 https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/T-25?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/T-25?_x_tr_sl... ) which is simple to use and repair, to something like a modern John Deere. Perhaps that's one of the better examples, where the more complex design ends up rather expensive, even if you don't need all of the features. But the former, simpler design? Well, somehow ones like that aren't manufactured much nowadays. Surely in regards to cars it should also be possible to pick the essentials (e.g. in regards to safety and security) and then offer plenty of different models, with varying different levels of technology embedded. Then again, it's easier to pump up the price if you cram more features in even in the basic models. Of course, it's not like that would be okay if those closed systems were to be replaced with open source either - since that might be a serious safety liability.

deepGem 4y ago
The principles behind the auto industry are primarily driven by the last motive. To pump up the price for some shitty upgrade that not many really want. It's the same core, with a few upgrades that are super cheap to manufacture. Like a dashboard change or change a knob to a button etc. It's like selling a new iPhone with just a few changes to some superficial apps such as I donno, Numbers. Agree with you on a modular car where you just let people customise and build whatever the heck they want. I even think you should be able to customize a 2 seater v/s a 4/5 seater with plenty of options.
philistine 4y ago
I visited my friend while he was plowing his fields, and one of his tractors was out of commission due to a broken sensor. The first thing that came out of his mouth was: I don’t hate the sensors, they saved one of my tractors from an oil leak one time. For tractors, the reason they gain features is to improve uptime, thus driving costs down. And they do.

okrad 4y ago

They touched on this in the video atop the article. Ford is heavily leaning on Google/Android to help them overhaul the in-car software experience. It would seem Ford is aware they lack in this area and have decided to outsource to the experienced craftsmen.

sangnoir 4y ago

> So yeah, Ford might make a fast car, they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future. I would kill for a "low-tech" EV - think Toyota Corolla[1], but with an electric power train. No touch screen, no "self driving" beyond lane assistance & adaptive cruise. Unfortunately, manufacturers are unwilling to start off with a low-margin products, but I believe that is the car of the future, and will sell like hot cakes. 1. An electric Ford Maverick would fit the bill too, if they don't ape Tesla's cockpit design. The Nissan Leaf is close to my ideal, but the lack of active cooling on the battery is a non-starter.

outworlder 4y ago
> I would kill for a "low-tech" EV - think Toyota Corolla[1], but with an electric power train. No touch screen, no "self driving" beyond lane assistance & adaptive cruise. So... a base model Nissan Leaf?
- sangnoir 4y ago
  A Nissan leaf would be perfect if it had active battery cooling. Replacement batteries prices eye watering (relative to purchase price), and Nissan Leaf batteries lose capacity rapidly (based on older models), especially in hot climes
Vrondi 4y ago
This is what is desperately needed.
deepGem 4y ago
The main impediment for this approach is still the battery pack. Unless you can reduce the cost/kwh of batteries the corolla of the ev world won't happen. Battery costs per Kwh are on a downward trend. Tesla is probably around 100-110$ per KWh translating to about 7-8K for it's flagship 70 KWh battery pack. 7-8K in about 30K of manufacturing costs. https://electrek.co/2018/05/31/tesla-model-3-teardow-material-production-cost/ https://electrek.co/2018/05/31/tesla-model-3-teardow-materia... https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2021/12/01/are-battery-cost-improvements-still-a-big-driver-of-teslas-margins/?sh=47a89eae4ae7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2021/12/01/ar... So am not sure a low margin approach would fly right now, simply because of supply constraints for volume production. Probably at a 10M/year run rate, the economies of scale would tip in the low margin high volume favour. How would you solve this conundrum. Can you just stick to a low margin approach from day 1 ? Focus relentlessly on cost reduction in all parts of the cars except the powertrain and the battery since those are the key reliability aspects. OR May be a conventional 5 seater car is an overkill for most usage and can you instead build a version with a 35KWh battery pack but a 2 seater like a Miata. No frills, fast and safe car at nearly half the cost but am not sure if you can maintain the same range.