4 ms·

How does Europe make it work? Lower salaries, higher cost of living. Is it just that so many essentials are handled by the government? Or are they still coastin

How does Europe make it work? Lower salaries, higher cost of living. Is it just that so many essentials are handled by the government? Or are they still coasting on the colonial wealth (this doesn’t seem likely)

Strom 4y ago
Cost of living is way lower in Europe, especially if you also account for health care and higher education.
rasz 4y ago
Europeans use weird tricks like charging two digit margin on medication, socialized education, and taxing fuel to pay for road maintenance.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  They also use weird tricks like underpaying health staff (doctors and nurses make 40% of what they do in the US, look at NHS salary tables), relying on US defense subsidies, and taxing everyone making over 100k at insane rates. We already have "socialized education" in public schools in most blue states if you make under 120k. The financial aid is generous enough that you aren't paying any tuition. The 70k sticker price is only paid by wealthy students, as a means of price discrimination.
  - m000 4y ago
    > doctors and nurses make 40% of what they do in the US Oh, those US nurses living the high life. > relying on US defense subsidies It's more like "keeping the US defense industry afloat by buying expensive gadgets we don't need".
    - ceeplusplus 4y ago
      > Oh, those US nurses living the high life. More like oh, those UK nurses in the poorhouse. They deserve to make what their US counterparts are making. > It's more like "keeping the US defense industry afloat by buying expensive gadgets we don't need" Yes, because that's what's defending Europe against Russian invasion, right? Expensive gadgets you don't need? Or is Germany's broken down, dysfunctional army [1] going to do that? [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-threadbare-army-bundeswehr/amp/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-thread...
  - rasz 4y ago
    >underpaying health staff yes, things like surgeries or dental dont bankrupt you in Europe, and doctors dont automatically become millionaires collecting vintage cars or buying private planes.
    - ceeplusplus 4y ago
      > doctors dont automatically become millionaires collecting vintage cars or buying private planes Yes, instead they make less than new grads working in literally any white collar field in the US, less than nurses in the US, and less than most blue collar trades in the US [1]. 91k GBP for the highest pay grade specialist doctor is just sad given how much training you need to become a specialist. That doctor could be making millions here in the US with their own practice. GPs in the US (lowest paid specialty) get paid 2-3x what GPs get paid in the UK, according to the NHS payscales. I think doctors working 80 hour residencies and grinding through med school deserve to get paid more, don't you think? [1] https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors/pay-doctors https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-d...
      - rasz 4y ago
        Is grinding thru med school somewhat sacred? should they earn more than EEs? civil engineers? architects? > making millions here in the US with their own practice yes, fixing noses or fake tits >Yes, instead they make less than new grads working in literally any white collar field in the US like almost everyone else. Newsflash - US is really expensive.
        ceeplusplus 4y ago
        > Is grinding thru med school somewhat sacred? should they earn more than EEs? civil engineers? architects? Everyone you mentioned should (and does in the US) earn more than 90k GBP. Nurses in the US (at least in California where they make 50-60$/h) earn the same as top pay grade specialty doctors in the UK according to that NHS payscale. > yes, fixing noses or fake tits No, there are many specialties which don't involve plastic surgery but make millions. Cardiologist, dermatologist, dentist, etc. Or if you're a surgeon and work at a big hospital, you can also make 500k+. All of these involve mitigating pain and suffering and saving lives. Sorry you think plastic surgery is the only way to earn a good living in medicine. > like almost everyone else. Newsflash - US is really expensive. Compared to what, London? Amsterdam? Paris? The US isn't more expensive than anywhere else, and for a doctor working in the suburbs, it's way cheaper than any major city in Europe. Don't forget, health insurance for white collar workers in the US is cheap compared to their salary, and taxes are lower. Energy costs as well. And a 401k is a lot cheaper than paying progressive social security taxes that redistribute earnings. At least the US doctor can afford a house, whereas the UK one will never buy one within an hour's drive of London in their lifetime.
jonasdegendt 4y ago
From a tech workers perspective in Western Europe, we have relatively high wages compared to the median, but it's just heavily taxed. For reference: when I started my first tech job 5 years ago, I started off at a pay higher than my mom who's 30 years into a career in public services. I started off in the highest tax bracket from the get go too. These high taxes are indeed used to run a lot of public services such as schooling, infrastructure, socialized healthcare etc. As such there's a high degree of wealth re-distribution since the people that don't/can't contribute as much still get the benefits of all of these public services. As to the higher cost of living, I personally feel like we tend to have access to the staples at a similar level of purchasing power as Northern Americans, but our disposable income doesn't stretch remotely as far beyond that. Automobiles are far less accessible, a new iPhone would eat up a substantial amount of my monthly take home, etc. Just my anecdotal and very top level two cents right here.

Strom 4y ago

Cost of living is way lower in Europe, especially if you also account for health care and higher education.

rasz 4y ago

Europeans use weird tricks like charging two digit margin on medication, socialized education, and taxing fuel to pay for road maintenance.

ceeplusplus 4y ago
They also use weird tricks like underpaying health staff (doctors and nurses make 40% of what they do in the US, look at NHS salary tables), relying on US defense subsidies, and taxing everyone making over 100k at insane rates. We already have "socialized education" in public schools in most blue states if you make under 120k. The financial aid is generous enough that you aren't paying any tuition. The 70k sticker price is only paid by wealthy students, as a means of price discrimination.
- m000 4y ago
  > doctors and nurses make 40% of what they do in the US Oh, those US nurses living the high life. > relying on US defense subsidies It's more like "keeping the US defense industry afloat by buying expensive gadgets we don't need".
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    > Oh, those US nurses living the high life. More like oh, those UK nurses in the poorhouse. They deserve to make what their US counterparts are making. > It's more like "keeping the US defense industry afloat by buying expensive gadgets we don't need" Yes, because that's what's defending Europe against Russian invasion, right? Expensive gadgets you don't need? Or is Germany's broken down, dysfunctional army [1] going to do that? [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-threadbare-army-bundeswehr/amp/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-thread...
- rasz 4y ago
  >underpaying health staff yes, things like surgeries or dental dont bankrupt you in Europe, and doctors dont automatically become millionaires collecting vintage cars or buying private planes.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    > doctors dont automatically become millionaires collecting vintage cars or buying private planes Yes, instead they make less than new grads working in literally any white collar field in the US, less than nurses in the US, and less than most blue collar trades in the US [1]. 91k GBP for the highest pay grade specialist doctor is just sad given how much training you need to become a specialist. That doctor could be making millions here in the US with their own practice. GPs in the US (lowest paid specialty) get paid 2-3x what GPs get paid in the UK, according to the NHS payscales. I think doctors working 80 hour residencies and grinding through med school deserve to get paid more, don't you think? [1] https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors/pay-doctors https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-d...
    - rasz 4y ago
      Is grinding thru med school somewhat sacred? should they earn more than EEs? civil engineers? architects? > making millions here in the US with their own practice yes, fixing noses or fake tits >Yes, instead they make less than new grads working in literally any white collar field in the US like almost everyone else. Newsflash - US is really expensive.
      - ceeplusplus 4y ago
        > Is grinding thru med school somewhat sacred? should they earn more than EEs? civil engineers? architects? Everyone you mentioned should (and does in the US) earn more than 90k GBP. Nurses in the US (at least in California where they make 50-60$/h) earn the same as top pay grade specialty doctors in the UK according to that NHS payscale. > yes, fixing noses or fake tits No, there are many specialties which don't involve plastic surgery but make millions. Cardiologist, dermatologist, dentist, etc. Or if you're a surgeon and work at a big hospital, you can also make 500k+. All of these involve mitigating pain and suffering and saving lives. Sorry you think plastic surgery is the only way to earn a good living in medicine. > like almost everyone else. Newsflash - US is really expensive. Compared to what, London? Amsterdam? Paris? The US isn't more expensive than anywhere else, and for a doctor working in the suburbs, it's way cheaper than any major city in Europe. Don't forget, health insurance for white collar workers in the US is cheap compared to their salary, and taxes are lower. Energy costs as well. And a 401k is a lot cheaper than paying progressive social security taxes that redistribute earnings. At least the US doctor can afford a house, whereas the UK one will never buy one within an hour's drive of London in their lifetime.

jonasdegendt 4y ago

From a tech workers perspective in Western Europe, we have relatively high wages compared to the median, but it's just heavily taxed. For reference: when I started my first tech job 5 years ago, I started off at a pay higher than my mom who's 30 years into a career in public services. I started off in the highest tax bracket from the get go too. These high taxes are indeed used to run a lot of public services such as schooling, infrastructure, socialized healthcare etc. As such there's a high degree of wealth re-distribution since the people that don't/can't contribute as much still get the benefits of all of these public services. As to the higher cost of living, I personally feel like we tend to have access to the staples at a similar level of purchasing power as Northern Americans, but our disposable income doesn't stretch remotely as far beyond that. Automobiles are far less accessible, a new iPhone would eat up a substantial amount of my monthly take home, etc. Just my anecdotal and very top level two cents right here.