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> Mobile engineers didn’t want to write RN code and web engineers didn’t want to build on mobile That's interesting. In our experience, we're having a difficul

> Mobile engineers didn’t want to write RN code and web engineers didn’t want to build on mobile That's interesting. In our experience, we're having a difficult time hiring folks that want to write native (including UI) in antiquated languages and frameworks - but it's much easier to hire JavaScript folks that just hack at RN. Of course, someone still needs to stand up the actual platform, as well as write shared (and sometimes platform specific) pieces of functionality mostly in C++ so for now I guess us oldtimers still have some job security :)

dimmke 4y ago
Yeah they think they know React Native until they have to debug something that is outside the happy path that is provided to them. These people probably have never worked on a production RN app or done upgrades and maintenance for one.
- dimmke 4y ago
  I want to clarify since this is getting upvoted, I still think RN is a better option than maintaining two separate apps in the vast majority of cases. It just suffers because everybody "knows React" so how hard could it really be and people get hired into roles working on RN with very little understanding of how it's different from a web based React project.
  - metadat 4y ago
    The promise of achievable unification with high-quality polished UX ends up being empty. React is complex.
programmarchy 4y ago
I wouldn’t call Swift (or Kotlin) antiquated. I’m sure it’s easier to hire JavaScript developers to hack on React Native because the talent pool is larger, but I’d wager your app quality will suffer. Depending on the app, sometimes a first class user experience just isn’t a high priority, in which case native-focused developers aren’t going to be attracted to working on it.
- dimmke 4y ago
  >I’d wager your app quality will suffer. I really dislike this argument, and it comes up every time React Native is discussed. I think it's a holdover from Ionic style mobile applications that simply emulated native UI in a webview. It was awful - especially when the native UI changed and the Ionic apps didn't. It's likely you use RN apps every day and don't even notice because they're indistinguishable from native apps. React Native is designed to compile down to native code and it uses native UI frameworks. The documentation on how it does this is very thorough. The problem is not React Native in my opinion. It's the native UI frameworks for iOS and Android. These frameworks have a lot of issues and taming them often requires developers with a lot of time and experience in that specific domain. Which is stupid and wasteful. Here's a story from yesterday of how Apple's SwiftUI (their much vaunted successor to UIKit, a very flawed framework itself) is struggling to construct basic settings views in the new version of MacOS: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2022/08/15/ventura-system-settings-tonsky https://daringfireball.net/linked/2022/08/15/ventura-system-... Not to mention the criticism of Swift as a language and how it has evolved, including the original creator leaving. And how complicated doing a fucking substring is: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39677330/how-does-string-substring-work-in-swift https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39677330/how-does-string... In my opinion, Flexbox is a perfect way of laying out elements on a 2D screen. It's way less confusing than the complex constraints system that UIKit used. React Native's implementation of it works well. Kotlin and Swift as DSLs do not need to exist. They are solutions in search of a problem. Designed by big tech to moat their platforms. Unless you're building an app that has a very non standard UI or a game, it doesn't make sense not to use React Native in my opinion.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    Look at the new Discord app. It's significantly slower than previously ever since the switch to react native, and has significantly more hangups. React native works maybe fine if your target device is the highest end iPhone, but if your users are on Android One devices, it's not going to work nearly as well. That's aside from the layouting being obviously off compared to the native layout engines.
    - 4y ago
hitekker 4y ago
> antiquated languages and frameworks Yikes, I hope you're not calling Kotlin or Swift antiquated. That's utterly false.
- trevyn 4y ago
  Swift = effectively proprietary = antiquated.
  - junon 4y ago
    That's some interesting logic.
- tuxpenguine 4y ago
  Some people think only javascript/typescript is modern. The javascript cult hopes everything to be written in js.
wingerlang 4y ago
This is an iOS only perspective, but it sounds like you are not actually looking too hard for iOS developers?. No iOS developer considers Swift antiquated (because it isn't). I'd argue no one even considers UIKit antiquated (middle aged, maybe). Maybe with the exception of brand new iOS developers who has jumped on the SwiftUI-only bandwagon. SwiftUI itself is so new that it barely is production ready. Sounds to me like you are actually looking for web developers who doesn't want to start learning native, but are OK to do the work in JS.
- gigel82 4y ago
  Sorry, just realized most folks associate React Native with mobile. We target that too, but we're mostly targeting desktop platforms (via React Native Windows and React Native macOS) - and in our case antiquated really means antiquated (think old-school custom XML-based UI framework).
  - wingerlang 4y ago
    I see, in that case I understand it more.
  - tomduncalf 4y ago
    How are you finding using RN on desktop? When I last looked into it (more than a year ago) RN Mac felt a bit lacking. There was no way to do drawing of custom paths (eg SVG) for example. Ended up using react-native-web in an Electron container to make a desktop version of an RN app, which worked surprisingly well.
shams93 4y ago
Yeah the frameworks are painful to work with and require extremely powerful (and expensive) systems to develop with while js can be learned on any old low end chromebook.
FlyingSnake 4y ago
> folks that want to write native (including UI) in antiquated languages and frameworks I’m which land is Kotlin and Swift antiquated? Both a modern and cutting edge technologies with stellar toolchain and 1st class IDE and platform support.

dimmke 4y ago

Yeah they think they know React Native until they have to debug something that is outside the happy path that is provided to them. These people probably have never worked on a production RN app or done upgrades and maintenance for one.

dimmke 4y ago
I want to clarify since this is getting upvoted, I still think RN is a better option than maintaining two separate apps in the vast majority of cases. It just suffers because everybody "knows React" so how hard could it really be and people get hired into roles working on RN with very little understanding of how it's different from a web based React project.
- metadat 4y ago
  The promise of achievable unification with high-quality polished UX ends up being empty. React is complex.

programmarchy 4y ago

I wouldn’t call Swift (or Kotlin) antiquated. I’m sure it’s easier to hire JavaScript developers to hack on React Native because the talent pool is larger, but I’d wager your app quality will suffer. Depending on the app, sometimes a first class user experience just isn’t a high priority, in which case native-focused developers aren’t going to be attracted to working on it.

dimmke 4y ago
>I’d wager your app quality will suffer. I really dislike this argument, and it comes up every time React Native is discussed. I think it's a holdover from Ionic style mobile applications that simply emulated native UI in a webview. It was awful - especially when the native UI changed and the Ionic apps didn't. It's likely you use RN apps every day and don't even notice because they're indistinguishable from native apps. React Native is designed to compile down to native code and it uses native UI frameworks. The documentation on how it does this is very thorough. The problem is not React Native in my opinion. It's the native UI frameworks for iOS and Android. These frameworks have a lot of issues and taming them often requires developers with a lot of time and experience in that specific domain. Which is stupid and wasteful. Here's a story from yesterday of how Apple's SwiftUI (their much vaunted successor to UIKit, a very flawed framework itself) is struggling to construct basic settings views in the new version of MacOS: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2022/08/15/ventura-system-settings-tonsky https://daringfireball.net/linked/2022/08/15/ventura-system-... Not to mention the criticism of Swift as a language and how it has evolved, including the original creator leaving. And how complicated doing a fucking substring is: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39677330/how-does-string-substring-work-in-swift https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39677330/how-does-string... In my opinion, Flexbox is a perfect way of laying out elements on a 2D screen. It's way less confusing than the complex constraints system that UIKit used. React Native's implementation of it works well. Kotlin and Swift as DSLs do not need to exist. They are solutions in search of a problem. Designed by big tech to moat their platforms. Unless you're building an app that has a very non standard UI or a game, it doesn't make sense not to use React Native in my opinion.
- kuschku 4y ago
  Look at the new Discord app. It's significantly slower than previously ever since the switch to react native, and has significantly more hangups. React native works maybe fine if your target device is the highest end iPhone, but if your users are on Android One devices, it's not going to work nearly as well. That's aside from the layouting being obviously off compared to the native layout engines.
  - 4y ago

hitekker 4y ago

> antiquated languages and frameworks Yikes, I hope you're not calling Kotlin or Swift antiquated. That's utterly false.

trevyn 4y ago
Swift = effectively proprietary = antiquated.
- junon 4y ago
  That's some interesting logic.
tuxpenguine 4y ago
Some people think only javascript/typescript is modern. The javascript cult hopes everything to be written in js.

wingerlang 4y ago

This is an iOS only perspective, but it sounds like you are not actually looking too hard for iOS developers?. No iOS developer considers Swift antiquated (because it isn't). I'd argue no one even considers UIKit antiquated (middle aged, maybe). Maybe with the exception of brand new iOS developers who has jumped on the SwiftUI-only bandwagon. SwiftUI itself is so new that it barely is production ready. Sounds to me like you are actually looking for web developers who doesn't want to start learning native, but are OK to do the work in JS.

gigel82 4y ago
Sorry, just realized most folks associate React Native with mobile. We target that too, but we're mostly targeting desktop platforms (via React Native Windows and React Native macOS) - and in our case antiquated really means antiquated (think old-school custom XML-based UI framework).
- wingerlang 4y ago
  I see, in that case I understand it more.
- tomduncalf 4y ago
  How are you finding using RN on desktop? When I last looked into it (more than a year ago) RN Mac felt a bit lacking. There was no way to do drawing of custom paths (eg SVG) for example. Ended up using react-native-web in an Electron container to make a desktop version of an RN app, which worked surprisingly well.

shams93 4y ago

Yeah the frameworks are painful to work with and require extremely powerful (and expensive) systems to develop with while js can be learned on any old low end chromebook.

FlyingSnake 4y ago

> folks that want to write native (including UI) in antiquated languages and frameworks I’m which land is Kotlin and Swift antiquated? Both a modern and cutting edge technologies with stellar toolchain and 1st class IDE and platform support.