7 ms·

Seems a little entitled to me. Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/wr

Seems a little entitled to me. Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/write CRUD apps? Sounds like someone is upset that more people dont find utility in their work

swayvil 4y ago
Because artists make the world an objectively better place in an uncommonly powerful way. Because it's an excellent investment, socially speaking. Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries. I think that's just misunderstanding cause and effect. It's more that nations "invest" more in art as they get wealthier. It's not that they pay a bunch of people to do whatever they want and tada, the country becomes industrialized.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  I enjoy the arts as much as anyone else, but the narrative that art by default is a transformative force for social good is just that, a nice marketing sleight of hands. Most art is entertainment, with a rather minuscule slice having something interesting to say. Not to say that entertainment isn't valuable and pleasurable, but there's a big gap between that and it advancing humanity.
  - swayvil 4y ago
    No, not by default. 1 in a 1000. But still. And we're talking all realms of unrestrained creative effort here. Science, technology and stories about dragons. Opensource software as well as basement watercolorists. This is where the shiny new legos of our society come from.
    - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
      This seems a little motte-and-baileyish. You start with "arts make the world a better place" and when presented with a critique you retreat towards "arts are the same as technology and science, let's treat them as one single group", which I don't buy.
      - swayvil 4y ago
        It arises from the same free unpressured space in your life. It's the same step up to creation and experimentation and play. Just different mediums. Watercolor, thought, machinery... So let's not draw any unnecessary differentiations.
- thethethethe 4y ago
  > Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries. Perhaps we should invest infrastructure, systems and institutions that give people more free time, flexibility, freedom, and inspiration so they can create good art rather than "investing in the arts"--whatever that means
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Not starving or dying from dysentery or hypothermia is infinitely more important and valuable than any art will ever be. Art has zero value for survival, and in some sense even huge negative value possibly.
anigbrowl 4y ago
I hear this a lot from people who don't understand how much hard work is involved in the art life, or generalize from notoriously feckless examples.
- thethethethe 4y ago
  I am sure that art is very hard work. I also happen to believe that art is extremely valuable to society. I enjoy art almost constantly throughout the day and it makes my life better. I just don't appreciate the sentiment that artists deserve to exclusively make the art they want, the way they want because art holds a special value to society that needs to be supported. Our society is drowning in art. There are millions of hours of content; videos, photos, drawings, music, books, etc that one can consume at any moment and more is being created every day. With this in mind it's pretty hard to believe that society isn't supporting artists enough. Sure some artists are poor but many are well off or even rich. You can't same the same for people who pick vegetables which we need to eat to not die
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  I don’t understand what point this is supposed to rebuke. Do you know how much hard work is involved in getting ps4 platinum trophies? So what?
watwut 4y ago
I like programming, actually. I have a sense that most my collegues currently like it too.
hgs3 4y ago
> Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/write CRUD apps? And why do these "boring pleb jobs" exist? Why doesn’t everyone create and share their creations? This isn’t limited to art. Consider the inventor of insulin sold the patent for $1 because he believed “Insulin belongs to the world, not to me.” Anyone who creates from the heart, artists scientists or otherwise, should be the gold standard that all humans live by. If everyone lived this way, then there would be no need for busy work jobs.
- Rayhem 4y ago
  > Anyone who creates from the heart, artists scientists or otherwise, should be the gold standard that all humans live by. I really, really wish this would happen, but I don't see a way around the bad actor problem. How do you build a human system that supports this that is also robust to exploitation?
  - hgs3 4y ago
    > How do you build a human system that supports this that is also robust to exploitation? Small steps. Acknowledge human nature for better or worse. Acknowledge that humans emulate what their exposed to. Consider cigarette smoking in the US sharply declined once legislation banned it from TV. The same should be done for idols: stop making idols of people based on their net worth. The average Joe knowing who Jeff Bezos is but not Frederick Banting is a failure of the media and education system. So start by promoting better role models and go from there.

swayvil 4y ago

Because artists make the world an objectively better place in an uncommonly powerful way. Because it's an excellent investment, socially speaking. Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries.

luckylion 4y ago
> Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries. I think that's just misunderstanding cause and effect. It's more that nations "invest" more in art as they get wealthier. It's not that they pay a bunch of people to do whatever they want and tada, the country becomes industrialized.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
I enjoy the arts as much as anyone else, but the narrative that art by default is a transformative force for social good is just that, a nice marketing sleight of hands. Most art is entertainment, with a rather minuscule slice having something interesting to say. Not to say that entertainment isn't valuable and pleasurable, but there's a big gap between that and it advancing humanity.
- swayvil 4y ago
  No, not by default. 1 in a 1000. But still. And we're talking all realms of unrestrained creative effort here. Science, technology and stories about dragons. Opensource software as well as basement watercolorists. This is where the shiny new legos of our society come from.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
    This seems a little motte-and-baileyish. You start with "arts make the world a better place" and when presented with a critique you retreat towards "arts are the same as technology and science, let's treat them as one single group", which I don't buy.
    - swayvil 4y ago
      It arises from the same free unpressured space in your life. It's the same step up to creation and experimentation and play. Just different mediums. Watercolor, thought, machinery... So let's not draw any unnecessary differentiations.
thethethethe 4y ago
> Because investment in the arts (I mean serious investment. Not like USA) has worked pretty well for some countries. Perhaps we should invest infrastructure, systems and institutions that give people more free time, flexibility, freedom, and inspiration so they can create good art rather than "investing in the arts"--whatever that means
Ekaros 4y ago
Not starving or dying from dysentery or hypothermia is infinitely more important and valuable than any art will ever be. Art has zero value for survival, and in some sense even huge negative value possibly.

anigbrowl 4y ago

I hear this a lot from people who don't understand how much hard work is involved in the art life, or generalize from notoriously feckless examples.

thethethethe 4y ago
I am sure that art is very hard work. I also happen to believe that art is extremely valuable to society. I enjoy art almost constantly throughout the day and it makes my life better. I just don't appreciate the sentiment that artists deserve to exclusively make the art they want, the way they want because art holds a special value to society that needs to be supported. Our society is drowning in art. There are millions of hours of content; videos, photos, drawings, music, books, etc that one can consume at any moment and more is being created every day. With this in mind it's pretty hard to believe that society isn't supporting artists enough. Sure some artists are poor but many are well off or even rich. You can't same the same for people who pick vegetables which we need to eat to not die
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
I don’t understand what point this is supposed to rebuke. Do you know how much hard work is involved in getting ps4 platinum trophies? So what?

watwut 4y ago

I like programming, actually. I have a sense that most my collegues currently like it too.

hgs3 4y ago

> Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/write CRUD apps? And why do these "boring pleb jobs" exist? Why doesn’t everyone create and share their creations? This isn’t limited to art. Consider the inventor of insulin sold the patent for $1 because he believed “Insulin belongs to the world, not to me.” Anyone who creates from the heart, artists scientists or otherwise, should be the gold standard that all humans live by. If everyone lived this way, then there would be no need for busy work jobs.

Rayhem 4y ago
> Anyone who creates from the heart, artists scientists or otherwise, should be the gold standard that all humans live by. I really, really wish this would happen, but I don't see a way around the bad actor problem. How do you build a human system that supports this that is also robust to exploitation?
- hgs3 4y ago
  > How do you build a human system that supports this that is also robust to exploitation? Small steps. Acknowledge human nature for better or worse. Acknowledge that humans emulate what their exposed to. Consider cigarette smoking in the US sharply declined once legislation banned it from TV. The same should be done for idols: stop making idols of people based on their net worth. The average Joe knowing who Jeff Bezos is but not Frederick Banting is a failure of the media and education system. So start by promoting better role models and go from there.