4 ms·

when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a

when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a modern japanese car. if you make $32k a year, a $4000 corolla is a lot of money. it is not at all the same economics as the actual historical method of pizza delivery by cheap crappy car, because of the greatly increased cost of fuel (while delivery driver wages are nearly the same now as they were 20 years ago), and the fact that the traditional delivery driver is paid almost entirely in cash.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
It's a car. Not a semi truck. The delivery driver isn't treating the car as a capital investment that is used to make money delivering stuff. The overwhelming of them are just taking advantage of a car they already have.
- walrus01 4y ago
  that's exactly what I'm saying, they're effectively using up the fractional lifespan of the car they already have sunk money into, and already possess, without doing the fully informed calculation on what it's actually costing them. taking advantage of a car you already have still has a calculable financial cost in how much fuel and wear/tear you put on a car doing a theoretical 8 hour delivery shift. app based delivery service things are relying upon the delivery people not calculating the fully loaded cost of their time and vehicle together to determine their own real net wage.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Put another way, the cost of operating a car that involves any significant amount of mileage over time--especially in areas that don't see a lot of corrosion due to salted road roads in winter--is mostly per-mile costs not time-based. If you drive your car a lot, there's very little free money that you're tapping into.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    You just don't get it. Even after amortized maintenance you're making money doing delivery. Not much, but you are. Certainly on the order of min-wage on a bad day and much better on a busy day. If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job vs filling that time doing gig economy crap using stuff you already own (a car). Gig economy crap might not pay well after expenses, but is still very much net positive after expenses. They know that cars cost money per mile to run. They might not know exactly how much but they have a pretty good idea on an annual basis. If picking up a crappy min-wage job that requires you to keep to their schedule is the alternative then gig economy crap is often the least worst option. These people aren't idiots. Stop acting like they are. This is one of the things HN does that really pisses me off. As a rule poor people are much, much, much better at tracking cumulative expenses than the kind of people who shop at whole foods and only have a vague idea of what things cost because they can afford it either way and don't actually need to hone that skillset.
    - walrus01 4y ago
      All of your comment reads like some excuse why VC funded food delivery app companies should continue to abuse low wage workers, because of course they're fully informed and know what they're getting into. These are the people who ultimately often end up with something like the WA state minimum wage after all expenses are subtracted. I didn't say that they're idiots, my point was that they're being taken advantage of in the current economic situation that they exist in. Maybe you should question why these people are apparently forced to pick between nothing other than an effectively-minimum-wage gig economy job with no benefits or job security, or a minimum wage job assembling food at taco bell or something and nothing better, effectively operating as a permanent underclass. From the way you describe it you seem to be totally okay with that situation in the economy. I'm not. > If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job oh for fuck's sake, why don't you just tell people that they should lick the boots of their gig economy no-benefits "employer" some more? get a 2nd or 3rd job just to exist in this late stage capitalist hellscape with 4 roommates in any major city.
      - 4y ago

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

It's a car. Not a semi truck. The delivery driver isn't treating the car as a capital investment that is used to make money delivering stuff. The overwhelming of them are just taking advantage of a car they already have.

walrus01 4y ago
that's exactly what I'm saying, they're effectively using up the fractional lifespan of the car they already have sunk money into, and already possess, without doing the fully informed calculation on what it's actually costing them. taking advantage of a car you already have still has a calculable financial cost in how much fuel and wear/tear you put on a car doing a theoretical 8 hour delivery shift. app based delivery service things are relying upon the delivery people not calculating the fully loaded cost of their time and vehicle together to determine their own real net wage.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Put another way, the cost of operating a car that involves any significant amount of mileage over time--especially in areas that don't see a lot of corrosion due to salted road roads in winter--is mostly per-mile costs not time-based. If you drive your car a lot, there's very little free money that you're tapping into.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  You just don't get it. Even after amortized maintenance you're making money doing delivery. Not much, but you are. Certainly on the order of min-wage on a bad day and much better on a busy day. If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job vs filling that time doing gig economy crap using stuff you already own (a car). Gig economy crap might not pay well after expenses, but is still very much net positive after expenses. They know that cars cost money per mile to run. They might not know exactly how much but they have a pretty good idea on an annual basis. If picking up a crappy min-wage job that requires you to keep to their schedule is the alternative then gig economy crap is often the least worst option. These people aren't idiots. Stop acting like they are. This is one of the things HN does that really pisses me off. As a rule poor people are much, much, much better at tracking cumulative expenses than the kind of people who shop at whole foods and only have a vague idea of what things cost because they can afford it either way and don't actually need to hone that skillset.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    All of your comment reads like some excuse why VC funded food delivery app companies should continue to abuse low wage workers, because of course they're fully informed and know what they're getting into. These are the people who ultimately often end up with something like the WA state minimum wage after all expenses are subtracted. I didn't say that they're idiots, my point was that they're being taken advantage of in the current economic situation that they exist in. Maybe you should question why these people are apparently forced to pick between nothing other than an effectively-minimum-wage gig economy job with no benefits or job security, or a minimum wage job assembling food at taco bell or something and nothing better, effectively operating as a permanent underclass. From the way you describe it you seem to be totally okay with that situation in the economy. I'm not. > If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job oh for fuck's sake, why don't you just tell people that they should lick the boots of their gig economy no-benefits "employer" some more? get a 2nd or 3rd job just to exist in this late stage capitalist hellscape with 4 roommates in any major city.
    - 4y ago