6 ms·

Yes. Just look at the appalling forward blind spot on a lot of trucks and SUVs. Or the way cars have become taller at the expense of aerodynamics.

by 7952 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago
People like sitting higher up, or do not like being seated lower, or so much lower, than others. It might also be safer to be in a higher up car in the event of a collision. Pretty much all the families I know with young kids and toddlers has a full size SUV. Every time I ask why they did not get a minivan such as Odyssey or Sienna, every response is they like SUVs and do not want to sit lower in the minivan. Even though the minivan has better fuel economy, seats more people with more legroom, and has more cargo space, the answer is still SUV is cooler than minivans. I even see families who live with elderly parents prefer to drive two SUVs (or 1 SUV and 1 pickup truck) somewhere with 3 to 4 people in each, rather than have one minivan to be able to transport all 7 or 8 at the same time. And these same families growing up went everywhere in minivans because it was the most economic way, but now that they can afford SUVs, that is what they choose to use.
- 7952 4y ago
  I know two couples who both started out with small efficient cars. And then had to upgrade because they could not fit a stroller in the back. It feels like car companies just want to have skews that are intentionally compromised to push people into the next tier. When most people just need a compact sedan.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Yet most people who can afford to, choose to buy larger vehicles than they need. Car manufacturers are not shaping people’s desires, they are simply delivering them what they want. A Corolla/civic continues to be available for purchase. Yet people want to sit higher up, so you see the vast increase in sales for RAV4/CRV. https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-demand-by-vehicle-type/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-...
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      The corolla/civic buyers seem to be on a longer planning horizon than the RAV4/CRV buyers. It's tough to compare sales apples to sales oranges when new car buyers on average buy sedans on 10-15 year schedules and SUVs on roughly 5 year schedules. That planning horizon differential alone is enough to explain why car manufacturers would be greater incentivized to iterate on SUVs faster than sedans and include more features. Iteration and feature differentials will contribute as much to sales choices as "sit higher up" will, acting as a reinforcement in the cycle/spiral towards larger vehicles. Car manufacturers aren't incentivized enough to lengthen their own planning horizons or otherwise better accommodate "sensible" sedan drivers, and it becomes very easy to pretend they don't exist and chase the short-term profits of the faster cycle time (especially when pushed by quarterly-earnings focused shareholders).
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    I can fit a stroller in the back of my subcompact. Granted I'm not able to go grocery shopping at the same time..
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      You're also not able to visibly broadcast that you're "doing parenting right" to all the other rich parents when you drop your crotch-fruit off at summer camp and that's the key feature that a hell of a lot of people are buying for.
      - LAC-Tech 4y ago
        LOL I do not live in an area that's nearly as fancy as what you're describing
  - fy20 4y ago
    My Prius can fit a large stroller and still have room for shopping in the trunk. As much hate as it gets, it's actually surprisingly roomy inside. Under the trunk floor there's a removable compartment that I use to store a 100pc tool kit, first aid kit, fire extinguisher and spare washer fluid. And under there is even more space. People who do LPG conversions store the tank there, so no loss of trunk space. On road trips, my wife and I would fold down the rear seats and sleep in the back. I'm 183cm (6ft) and there is plenty of space. You can fit 2.4m lengths of wood if you need trips to the hardware store. I guess full plywood sheets would need the hatch open, but there wouldn't be much overhang. A year or so ago I tried a RAV4 and it felt much smaller inside. In the rear seats I felt much more squashed.
- davidw 4y ago
  This "arms race" is piling up stacks and stacks of bodies.
  - vanilla_nut 4y ago
    I've been slowly writing a near-future science fiction story where everyone drives around 15 feet above the ground and has to enter their car on a ladder, because over 50 years vehicles slowly crept up in height and nobody wanted to be the "low car" on the road. It started out as a joke back in 2010, partially inspired by "A Nice Morning Drive" (http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/19731100roadandtrack.htm http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/19731100roadand...) from the 1972s. It is no longer very funny -- Ford killing its sedans a couple years back was a sad wakeupcall.
    - 7952 4y ago
      You can definitely see paralels in fashion trends. Just look at the use of ruffs or extravegent cod pieces in medieval Europe.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Have you heard of jean yanne’s l'apocalypse est pour demain? It is a story about a society where people live in their cars 24/7. It is very interesting but I’m not sure if there’s an English translation
      - dont__panic 4y ago
        Sounds a lot like the Doctor Who episode "Gridlock" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock_(Doctor_Who) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock_(Doctor_Who))!
    - davidw 4y ago
      I did this with DALL-E: https://twitter.com/davidnwelton/status/1547019886811021313 https://twitter.com/davidnwelton/status/1547019886811021313
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  > People like sitting higher up, or do not like being seated lower, or so much lower, than others. Most of my driving is on country roads in a mountainous area, with some very tight turns. I'm going to rent out an SUV soon and see what it's like taking sharp turns with a high vehicle. I suspect it sucks but who knows.
  - alephxyz 4y ago
    It sucks and it's more vulnerable to rollovers : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIN8CyhYREM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIN8CyhYREM
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      I'm very jealous of the US car market where there's a lot of AWD sedan options. Here in NZ we have the Camary, Mazda 6, Lexus IS etc but none of them are available in AWD. Only crossovers, SUVs and Utes (small pick up trucks). I've actually been toying with the idea of getting a Subaru WRX. I'm not a a boyracer or anything, but it's about the only japanese, AWD sedan available here. Feels like a weirdly practical choice (good cornering, better handling in ice/heavy rain/gravel). EDIT: wow even modern Rav4s fail the moose test - a car which I'd call pretty mild for an SUV, even wagon like.
      - fy20 4y ago
        Do you have Volvo there? They still make the V60 and V90 in 'cross country' versions in Europe, which is a 4x4 sedan.
- jkestner 4y ago
  This influenced our thinking: https://jalopnik.com/parents-just-buy-the-damn-minivan-1597502940 https://jalopnik.com/parents-just-buy-the-damn-minivan-15975... The Sienna is great for kids and I've managed to fit 4x8 sheets in it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sojournerc 4y ago
That blind spot houses a curtain airbag that has significantly increased safety in crashes. Engineering is managing tradeoffs. Safety is now a mandatory standard. We can have small a-pillars at the expense of safety. As with any blind spot, one just has to move their head...
- dabeeeenster 4y ago
  Safety for drivers but not for pedestrians or cyclists.
  - bpye 4y ago
    Not just that, but at the specific expense of pedestrians and cyclists.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Accident data and crash tests proof otherwise.
      - bpye 4y ago
        The data I can find with a very quick google shows that higher vehicles are more dangerous to pedestrians and so the move towards SUVs and trucks has put pedestrians at higher risk . - https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-suvs-are-more-lethal-to-pedestrians-than-cars https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-s... - https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/3/154 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/3/154 - https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6411168 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6411168
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Side curtain airbags are probably a bigger plus to the safety of reasonable people who are wearing seat-belts and not crashing into shit head on at high speed than frontal airbags since the latter is just the last stage of a bunch of tech whereas side curtain is doing most of the heavy lifting in its direction.

Yes. Just look at the appalling forward blind spot on a lot of trucks and SUVs. Or the way cars have become taller at the expense of aerodynamics.

by 7952 4y ago

Yes. Just look at the appalling forward blind spot on a lot of trucks and SUVs. Or the way cars have become taller at the expense of aerodynamics.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

People like sitting higher up, or do not like being seated lower, or so much lower, than others. It might also be safer to be in a higher up car in the event of a collision. Pretty much all the families I know with young kids and toddlers has a full size SUV. Every time I ask why they did not get a minivan such as Odyssey or Sienna, every response is they like SUVs and do not want to sit lower in the minivan. Even though the minivan has better fuel economy, seats more people with more legroom, and has more cargo space, the answer is still SUV is cooler than minivans. I even see families who live with elderly parents prefer to drive two SUVs (or 1 SUV and 1 pickup truck) somewhere with 3 to 4 people in each, rather than have one minivan to be able to transport all 7 or 8 at the same time. And these same families growing up went everywhere in minivans because it was the most economic way, but now that they can afford SUVs, that is what they choose to use.

7952 4y ago
I know two couples who both started out with small efficient cars. And then had to upgrade because they could not fit a stroller in the back. It feels like car companies just want to have skews that are intentionally compromised to push people into the next tier. When most people just need a compact sedan.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Yet most people who can afford to, choose to buy larger vehicles than they need. Car manufacturers are not shaping people’s desires, they are simply delivering them what they want. A Corolla/civic continues to be available for purchase. Yet people want to sit higher up, so you see the vast increase in sales for RAV4/CRV. https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-demand-by-vehicle-type/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-...
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    The corolla/civic buyers seem to be on a longer planning horizon than the RAV4/CRV buyers. It's tough to compare sales apples to sales oranges when new car buyers on average buy sedans on 10-15 year schedules and SUVs on roughly 5 year schedules. That planning horizon differential alone is enough to explain why car manufacturers would be greater incentivized to iterate on SUVs faster than sedans and include more features. Iteration and feature differentials will contribute as much to sales choices as "sit higher up" will, acting as a reinforcement in the cycle/spiral towards larger vehicles. Car manufacturers aren't incentivized enough to lengthen their own planning horizons or otherwise better accommodate "sensible" sedan drivers, and it becomes very easy to pretend they don't exist and chase the short-term profits of the faster cycle time (especially when pushed by quarterly-earnings focused shareholders).
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  I can fit a stroller in the back of my subcompact. Granted I'm not able to go grocery shopping at the same time..
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    You're also not able to visibly broadcast that you're "doing parenting right" to all the other rich parents when you drop your crotch-fruit off at summer camp and that's the key feature that a hell of a lot of people are buying for.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      LOL I do not live in an area that's nearly as fancy as what you're describing
- fy20 4y ago
  My Prius can fit a large stroller and still have room for shopping in the trunk. As much hate as it gets, it's actually surprisingly roomy inside. Under the trunk floor there's a removable compartment that I use to store a 100pc tool kit, first aid kit, fire extinguisher and spare washer fluid. And under there is even more space. People who do LPG conversions store the tank there, so no loss of trunk space. On road trips, my wife and I would fold down the rear seats and sleep in the back. I'm 183cm (6ft) and there is plenty of space. You can fit 2.4m lengths of wood if you need trips to the hardware store. I guess full plywood sheets would need the hatch open, but there wouldn't be much overhang. A year or so ago I tried a RAV4 and it felt much smaller inside. In the rear seats I felt much more squashed.
davidw 4y ago
This "arms race" is piling up stacks and stacks of bodies.
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  I've been slowly writing a near-future science fiction story where everyone drives around 15 feet above the ground and has to enter their car on a ladder, because over 50 years vehicles slowly crept up in height and nobody wanted to be the "low car" on the road. It started out as a joke back in 2010, partially inspired by "A Nice Morning Drive" (http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/19731100roadandtrack.htm http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/19731100roadand...) from the 1972s. It is no longer very funny -- Ford killing its sedans a couple years back was a sad wakeupcall.
  - 7952 4y ago
    You can definitely see paralels in fashion trends. Just look at the use of ruffs or extravegent cod pieces in medieval Europe.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Have you heard of jean yanne’s l'apocalypse est pour demain? It is a story about a society where people live in their cars 24/7. It is very interesting but I’m not sure if there’s an English translation
    - dont__panic 4y ago
      Sounds a lot like the Doctor Who episode "Gridlock" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock_(Doctor_Who) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock_(Doctor_Who))!
  - davidw 4y ago
    I did this with DALL-E: https://twitter.com/davidnwelton/status/1547019886811021313 https://twitter.com/davidnwelton/status/1547019886811021313
LAC-Tech 4y ago
> People like sitting higher up, or do not like being seated lower, or so much lower, than others. Most of my driving is on country roads in a mountainous area, with some very tight turns. I'm going to rent out an SUV soon and see what it's like taking sharp turns with a high vehicle. I suspect it sucks but who knows.
- alephxyz 4y ago
  It sucks and it's more vulnerable to rollovers : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIN8CyhYREM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIN8CyhYREM
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    I'm very jealous of the US car market where there's a lot of AWD sedan options. Here in NZ we have the Camary, Mazda 6, Lexus IS etc but none of them are available in AWD. Only crossovers, SUVs and Utes (small pick up trucks). I've actually been toying with the idea of getting a Subaru WRX. I'm not a a boyracer or anything, but it's about the only japanese, AWD sedan available here. Feels like a weirdly practical choice (good cornering, better handling in ice/heavy rain/gravel). EDIT: wow even modern Rav4s fail the moose test - a car which I'd call pretty mild for an SUV, even wagon like.
    - fy20 4y ago
      Do you have Volvo there? They still make the V60 and V90 in 'cross country' versions in Europe, which is a 4x4 sedan.
jkestner 4y ago
This influenced our thinking: https://jalopnik.com/parents-just-buy-the-damn-minivan-1597502940 https://jalopnik.com/parents-just-buy-the-damn-minivan-15975... The Sienna is great for kids and I've managed to fit 4x8 sheets in it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sojournerc 4y ago

That blind spot houses a curtain airbag that has significantly increased safety in crashes. Engineering is managing tradeoffs. Safety is now a mandatory standard. We can have small a-pillars at the expense of safety. As with any blind spot, one just has to move their head...

dabeeeenster 4y ago
Safety for drivers but not for pedestrians or cyclists.
- bpye 4y ago
  Not just that, but at the specific expense of pedestrians and cyclists.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Accident data and crash tests proof otherwise.
    - bpye 4y ago
      The data I can find with a very quick google shows that higher vehicles are more dangerous to pedestrians and so the move towards SUVs and trucks has put pedestrians at higher risk . - https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-suvs-are-more-lethal-to-pedestrians-than-cars https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-s... - https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/3/154 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/3/154 - https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6411168 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6411168
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Side curtain airbags are probably a bigger plus to the safety of reasonable people who are wearing seat-belts and not crashing into shit head on at high speed than frontal airbags since the latter is just the last stage of a bunch of tech whereas side curtain is doing most of the heavy lifting in its direction.