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For vehicle based delivery in cars... Apps like these are relying on people who've already sunk some huge amount of money into a car and are not doing the full

For vehicle based delivery in cars... Apps like these are relying on people who've already sunk some huge amount of money into a car and are not doing the fully loaded cost per mile calculation of operating a car in stop-and-go delivery service in an urban environment. If you calculate the purchase cost of car, insurance, fuel, repairs/maintenance, tires, oil changes, depreciation etc, it's quite bad. The actual amount of money earned by the delivery person after subtracting the fully loaded cost of the car is often near minimum wage in some states. Much the same as Lyft and Uber actually.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
The cost per mile for the class of people making these comments is not the same as the cost per mile for the guy doing delivery work. You probably drive a nice new Camry or some other vehicle that is far from the "floor value for A to B transportation in a given mechanical condition" and will fall in value precipitously as it hits various milestones. The delivery driver has some 15yo car with over 150k on it where value is purely dependent on mechanical condition. You probably replace your tires when your mechanic tells you. These delivery driver runs them until they're bald. You take your car to the premium mechanic. The delivery driver has "a guy" who does 99% of his basic maintenance for cheap and only ever has big stuff done at the mechanic. These people (the ones who understand the economics of what they do, which is most of them) don't maintain their cars like techies do. They take a page out of the age old "pizza delivery" playbook. With the highly variable nature of distance driven and compensation these people are generally well aware of operational costs vs gross income. You kind of have to be.
- walrus01 4y ago
  when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a modern japanese car. if you make $32k a year, a $4000 corolla is a lot of money. it is not at all the same economics as the actual historical method of pizza delivery by cheap crappy car, because of the greatly increased cost of fuel (while delivery driver wages are nearly the same now as they were 20 years ago), and the fact that the traditional delivery driver is paid almost entirely in cash.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    It's a car. Not a semi truck. The delivery driver isn't treating the car as a capital investment that is used to make money delivering stuff. The overwhelming of them are just taking advantage of a car they already have.
    - walrus01 4y ago
      that's exactly what I'm saying, they're effectively using up the fractional lifespan of the car they already have sunk money into, and already possess, without doing the fully informed calculation on what it's actually costing them. taking advantage of a car you already have still has a calculable financial cost in how much fuel and wear/tear you put on a car doing a theoretical 8 hour delivery shift. app based delivery service things are relying upon the delivery people not calculating the fully loaded cost of their time and vehicle together to determine their own real net wage.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Put another way, the cost of operating a car that involves any significant amount of mileage over time--especially in areas that don't see a lot of corrosion due to salted road roads in winter--is mostly per-mile costs not time-based. If you drive your car a lot, there's very little free money that you're tapping into.
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        You just don't get it. Even after amortized maintenance you're making money doing delivery. Not much, but you are. Certainly on the order of min-wage on a bad day and much better on a busy day. If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job vs filling that time doing gig economy crap using stuff you already own (a car). Gig economy crap might not pay well after expenses, but is still very much net positive after expenses. They know that cars cost money per mile to run. They might not know exactly how much but they have a pretty good idea on an annual basis. If picking up a crappy min-wage job that requires you to keep to their schedule is the alternative then gig economy crap is often the least worst option. These people aren't idiots. Stop acting like they are. This is one of the things HN does that really pisses me off. As a rule poor people are much, much, much better at tracking cumulative expenses than the kind of people who shop at whole foods and only have a vague idea of what things cost because they can afford it either way and don't actually need to hone that skillset.
duncan_idaho 4y ago
But pizza places have been doing delivery for decades with employee cars. Why is it now "bad" when a tech company does it? The scale?
- walrus01 4y ago
  a) traditionally, the delivery driver keeps the entire tip in cash. there's no bullshit "delivery fees" added to an order which actually don't go to the driver. b) it used to be a lot less costly to operate a basic car in the US/Canada on a dollar per mile or km basis
  - pc86 4y ago
    To point A, delivery fees have been around for a while and have never gone to the driver. Is there some app or scenario in which the driver doesn't keep the entire tip? Because I'm not aware of any. To point B, how is this tech-specific? The question was about why someone driving their car to deliver for Domino's is OK but driving their car to deliver for DoorDash is exploitation.
    - walrus01 4y ago
      point A, app based food delivery services with "delivery fee" charged to the customer and not passed on to the driver is a new thing. 15 or 20 years ago if you order a pizza from your local pizza place, the price you pay for the pizza is fixed and known, and you tip the driver in cash. there's no extra 3rd charge line item for "delivery" anywhere. point B, the advent of app based food delivery in the past 8 years happens to coincide with greatly increased cost of operating the car. I was explaining why traditional method of delivery used to be much more economically viable. Two things happening simultaneously, increase in cost of fuel and operating cars and the increased popularity of app based food delivery does not mean correlation equals causation.
  - sharemywin 4y ago
    tips weren't that good back in the older days. most people only tipped a $1 if anything and thought the delivery fee went to the driver which in a way it did because they usually got paid hourly plus a small fee.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

The cost per mile for the class of people making these comments is not the same as the cost per mile for the guy doing delivery work. You probably drive a nice new Camry or some other vehicle that is far from the "floor value for A to B transportation in a given mechanical condition" and will fall in value precipitously as it hits various milestones. The delivery driver has some 15yo car with over 150k on it where value is purely dependent on mechanical condition. You probably replace your tires when your mechanic tells you. These delivery driver runs them until they're bald. You take your car to the premium mechanic. The delivery driver has "a guy" who does 99% of his basic maintenance for cheap and only ever has big stuff done at the mechanic. These people (the ones who understand the economics of what they do, which is most of them) don't maintain their cars like techies do. They take a page out of the age old "pizza delivery" playbook. With the highly variable nature of distance driven and compensation these people are generally well aware of operational costs vs gross income. You kind of have to be.

walrus01 4y ago
when I say that a delivery driver has sunk some huge amount of money into a car, relative to their annual income, it's probably proportional to what I pay for a modern japanese car. if you make $32k a year, a $4000 corolla is a lot of money. it is not at all the same economics as the actual historical method of pizza delivery by cheap crappy car, because of the greatly increased cost of fuel (while delivery driver wages are nearly the same now as they were 20 years ago), and the fact that the traditional delivery driver is paid almost entirely in cash.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  It's a car. Not a semi truck. The delivery driver isn't treating the car as a capital investment that is used to make money delivering stuff. The overwhelming of them are just taking advantage of a car they already have.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    that's exactly what I'm saying, they're effectively using up the fractional lifespan of the car they already have sunk money into, and already possess, without doing the fully informed calculation on what it's actually costing them. taking advantage of a car you already have still has a calculable financial cost in how much fuel and wear/tear you put on a car doing a theoretical 8 hour delivery shift. app based delivery service things are relying upon the delivery people not calculating the fully loaded cost of their time and vehicle together to determine their own real net wage.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Put another way, the cost of operating a car that involves any significant amount of mileage over time--especially in areas that don't see a lot of corrosion due to salted road roads in winter--is mostly per-mile costs not time-based. If you drive your car a lot, there's very little free money that you're tapping into.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      You just don't get it. Even after amortized maintenance you're making money doing delivery. Not much, but you are. Certainly on the order of min-wage on a bad day and much better on a busy day. If you want more money you have the choice between picking up an inflexible 2nd or 3rd low hour job vs filling that time doing gig economy crap using stuff you already own (a car). Gig economy crap might not pay well after expenses, but is still very much net positive after expenses. They know that cars cost money per mile to run. They might not know exactly how much but they have a pretty good idea on an annual basis. If picking up a crappy min-wage job that requires you to keep to their schedule is the alternative then gig economy crap is often the least worst option. These people aren't idiots. Stop acting like they are. This is one of the things HN does that really pisses me off. As a rule poor people are much, much, much better at tracking cumulative expenses than the kind of people who shop at whole foods and only have a vague idea of what things cost because they can afford it either way and don't actually need to hone that skillset.

duncan_idaho 4y ago

But pizza places have been doing delivery for decades with employee cars. Why is it now "bad" when a tech company does it? The scale?

walrus01 4y ago
a) traditionally, the delivery driver keeps the entire tip in cash. there's no bullshit "delivery fees" added to an order which actually don't go to the driver. b) it used to be a lot less costly to operate a basic car in the US/Canada on a dollar per mile or km basis
- pc86 4y ago
  To point A, delivery fees have been around for a while and have never gone to the driver. Is there some app or scenario in which the driver doesn't keep the entire tip? Because I'm not aware of any. To point B, how is this tech-specific? The question was about why someone driving their car to deliver for Domino's is OK but driving their car to deliver for DoorDash is exploitation.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    point A, app based food delivery services with "delivery fee" charged to the customer and not passed on to the driver is a new thing. 15 or 20 years ago if you order a pizza from your local pizza place, the price you pay for the pizza is fixed and known, and you tip the driver in cash. there's no extra 3rd charge line item for "delivery" anywhere. point B, the advent of app based food delivery in the past 8 years happens to coincide with greatly increased cost of operating the car. I was explaining why traditional method of delivery used to be much more economically viable. Two things happening simultaneously, increase in cost of fuel and operating cars and the increased popularity of app based food delivery does not mean correlation equals causation.
- sharemywin 4y ago
  tips weren't that good back in the older days. most people only tipped a $1 if anything and thought the delivery fee went to the driver which in a way it did because they usually got paid hourly plus a small fee.