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It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrat

It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual.

pm90 4y ago
Agreed. In tech especially, certain minority groups (East and South Asians) are over represented so our processes must evolve to deal with the situations that result from them.
- colpabar 4y ago
  I'd rather the processes evolve to treat all discrimination on factors such as race or caste as bad, regardless of the race or caste of the people doing the discriminating.
pnathan 4y ago
> It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual. what's really bleakly funny is that you're right - that's how it's taken, but that's actually a major _point_ of intersectionality.
- morelisp 4y ago
  Well, "DEI" in the end is the neoliberalization of (the capitalist-corporate-compatible parts of) intersectionality, so it's not really surprising that something of significant value was lost in the appropriation.
  - trs8080 4y ago
    How does one "neoliberalize" intersectionality? What parts of intersectionality are "capitalist-corporate-compatible"?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
chowells 4y ago
That's... Exactly the opposite of a blind spot in intersectionality. The idea that those in the intersections of marginalized groups suffer more doesn't come from some bizarre belief that those at the top mistreat them twice as much. It comes from recognizing that more people feel comfortable mistreating them. It's well-documented at this point that black women in the USA during slavery were mistreated just as much by white women as white men, despite the weight of patriarchy causing white women to be mistreated by white men as well: oppressor in one situation, oppressed in another. Intersectionality is calling out that those differences are present within groups, and that no analysis based on only a single axis can ever explain the full situation.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  - chowells 4y ago
    It's telling that you didn't actually address my point. See, isn't innuendo fun? Telling of what, precisely? If you think my point is false, please do say so. If you think my example isn't accurate, please say so. If you think my example is accurate but not a good analogy for the original discussion, please explain why that matters when I'm refuting a claim you made that is also not related to the original discussion. Don't just slather on innuendo. Make arguments consisting of assertions of fact, reasoning from those asserted facts, and conclusions drawn from that reasoning.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      > Telling of what, precisely? The blind spot I posited and which you then summarily demonstrated.
      - chowells 4y ago
        Still waiting for a non-innuendo response. Do you have one?
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
danbolt 4y ago
> ... the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual. I think this is a textbook description of intersectionality[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
toofy 4y ago
you may be thinking of something different from intersectionality. this situation is a perfect example of one of the most basic foundational concepts of intersectionality. - person A is discriminated against because of some trait - person A may use whatever power they have to diminish another person because of some trait their own group has historically oppressed. discrimination isn’t a direct straight line. it’s much more complicated, it intersects in many strange ways.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  That’s the theory, which, if you actually took to its logical conclusion, would result in treating and evaluating every individual as an individual, and the entire concept of group identity as a short-hand mechanism for assigning “intersecting identities” would have to be abandoned. That’s not how it is applied in practice.
  - watwut 4y ago
    It does not logically follows at all. Nothing in what previous poster said prevents analysis of group behavior or treatment. It does not make it impossible to talk about race or gender or age - it only makes it less naive.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      It makes it impossible to assign an individual identity — and evaluate individual behavior and status — as merely a function of their coarse-grained group membership.
      - watwut 4y ago
        It does not make it impossible at all. And it also does not need to. You can talk about how groups are influenced or how they interact without making all the interaction to be result of "merely" just that.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago

pm90 4y ago

Agreed. In tech especially, certain minority groups (East and South Asians) are over represented so our processes must evolve to deal with the situations that result from them.

colpabar 4y ago
I'd rather the processes evolve to treat all discrimination on factors such as race or caste as bad, regardless of the race or caste of the people doing the discriminating.

pnathan 4y ago

> It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual. what's really bleakly funny is that you're right - that's how it's taken, but that's actually a major _point_ of intersectionality.

morelisp 4y ago
Well, "DEI" in the end is the neoliberalization of (the capitalist-corporate-compatible parts of) intersectionality, so it's not really surprising that something of significant value was lost in the appropriation.
- trs8080 4y ago
  How does one "neoliberalize" intersectionality? What parts of intersectionality are "capitalist-corporate-compatible"?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

chowells 4y ago

That's... Exactly the opposite of a blind spot in intersectionality. The idea that those in the intersections of marginalized groups suffer more doesn't come from some bizarre belief that those at the top mistreat them twice as much. It comes from recognizing that more people feel comfortable mistreating them. It's well-documented at this point that black women in the USA during slavery were mistreated just as much by white women as white men, despite the weight of patriarchy causing white women to be mistreated by white men as well: oppressor in one situation, oppressed in another. Intersectionality is calling out that those differences are present within groups, and that no analysis based on only a single axis can ever explain the full situation.

teakettle42 4y ago
- chowells 4y ago
  It's telling that you didn't actually address my point. See, isn't innuendo fun? Telling of what, precisely? If you think my point is false, please do say so. If you think my example isn't accurate, please say so. If you think my example is accurate but not a good analogy for the original discussion, please explain why that matters when I'm refuting a claim you made that is also not related to the original discussion. Don't just slather on innuendo. Make arguments consisting of assertions of fact, reasoning from those asserted facts, and conclusions drawn from that reasoning.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    > Telling of what, precisely? The blind spot I posited and which you then summarily demonstrated.
    - chowells 4y ago
      Still waiting for a non-innuendo response. Do you have one?
    - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

danbolt 4y ago

> ... the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual. I think this is a textbook description of intersectionality[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

toofy 4y ago

you may be thinking of something different from intersectionality. this situation is a perfect example of one of the most basic foundational concepts of intersectionality. - person A is discriminated against because of some trait - person A may use whatever power they have to diminish another person because of some trait their own group has historically oppressed. discrimination isn’t a direct straight line. it’s much more complicated, it intersects in many strange ways.

teakettle42 4y ago
That’s the theory, which, if you actually took to its logical conclusion, would result in treating and evaluating every individual as an individual, and the entire concept of group identity as a short-hand mechanism for assigning “intersecting identities” would have to be abandoned. That’s not how it is applied in practice.
- watwut 4y ago
  It does not logically follows at all. Nothing in what previous poster said prevents analysis of group behavior or treatment. It does not make it impossible to talk about race or gender or age - it only makes it less naive.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    It makes it impossible to assign an individual identity — and evaluate individual behavior and status — as merely a function of their coarse-grained group membership.
    - watwut 4y ago
      It does not make it impossible at all. And it also does not need to. You can talk about how groups are influenced or how they interact without making all the interaction to be result of "merely" just that.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago