7 ms·

Meh. In the end, Microsoft will betray those who trusted it. Long term, better just to pretend it does not exist and never, ever depend on anything with Microso

Meh. In the end, Microsoft will betray those who trusted it. Long term, better just to pretend it does not exist and never, ever depend on anything with Microsoft name on it.

elforce002 4y ago
I agree with you.
dnndev 4y ago
Not true. To blanket state microsoft is not reliable is ignorant. Anyhow, be on your way. I will continue using .net / c# for another decade.
- mrkeen 4y ago
  I hope it lasts that long. I picked up and used XNA for the global gamejam 2012. It wasn't a terrible experience, so I went to use it again for 2013 but they'd since killed it off.
  - metaltyphoon 4y ago
    It has been already 2 decades. It will probably last another 2.
- alexklarjr 4y ago
  It was VB, Access and Sharepoint heavy marketed by MS evangelist drones as primary LOB tools just before Windows.NET The next .CLOUD or .AI frameworks is probably on its way in minds of board of directors. Microsoft is great in producing APIs and frameworks thats not last. And drones will happy to explain how powerful and simple things now.
the-lazy-guy 4y ago
Millions of businesses run on Microsoft platforms and software developed on/for Microsoft platforms for decades. I think you are painting darker picture than it really is. Or please elaborate a little what you mean by "betraying".
- cabirum 4y ago
  I believe, sooner or later, MS will put some arbitrary restrictions on .net or some part of its toolchain, forcing users to purchase a license to make it usable. It will probably involve "cloud" to sign/notarize your binaries to distribute them and give MS complete control of the ecosystem. Obviously, I have no idea what exactly will MS do, but after reaching some adoption target, MS will try to extract as much money as it can, because that's what they do. The other posters in this thread mentioned the debugger is still proprietary. Anyway, I'm not touching this.
  - Hawxy 4y ago
    > MS will put some arbitrary restrictions on .net or some part of its toolchain. I doubt this. Microsoft's monetary strategy around .NET for a number is years has been "look at how easy you can deploy/run/monitor your .NET app on Azure!", I don't see that changing to anything else unless there's a massive change of priority and executive leadership at Microsoft.
  - nonbirithm 4y ago
    Technically the restrictions already exist, just as a part of the development experience. - .NET Hot Reload is only implemented on Windows. It requires support in the .NET runtime, which is technically possible to implement, but the team has not gotten around to implementing it for years. This doesn't have to do with the issue around MS removing the "dotnet watch" command, it's for the "Edit and Continue" feature in IDEs.[1][2] - MS was considering deprecating Omnisharp, the open-source language server that implements C# support for VS Code, and replacing it with a closed-source version. Since the announcement, commits to omnisharp-vscode have dropped off significantly. The lack of Omnisharp would mean there would be no real open-source C# development environment for Linux anymore, since MonoDevelop was abandoned a few years ago.[3] [1] https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-31366/EditContinue-Support-for-non-Windows-OS https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-31366/EditContinu... [2] https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/issues/23685 https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/issues/23685 [3] https://github.com/omnisharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276 https://github.com/omnisharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276
RajT88 4y ago
I knew there'd be at least one of you guys in this thread.
- labrador 4y ago
  Like a "reply guy" on Twitter mansplaining Microsoft
- metaltyphoon 4y ago
  There always is. 1) Don't trust Go because of Google 2) Don't trust C#,F# because M$ (yes with dollar sign) 3) Don't trust Java because Oracle 4) You gotta use XXX tech, which has no jobs in your area Yada Yada... yet is probably using VSCode or GitHub. Just ignore it.
  - InitEnabler 4y ago
    Yup. Basically the programming version of "No ethical consumption under capitalism." saying.
    - pxc 4y ago
      It's the opposite. > There is no ethical consumption under capitalism is said to de-emphasize or criticize arguments that are centered on consumer choice which is exactly what you and GP are doing by saying > You have no choice but to depend on big corporations for key software platforms; advising or choosing to stay away from this one or that one matters little
  - nikanj 4y ago
    5) You gotta use unstable alpha because decades-in-production tools are obviously oldschool and thus slow
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - okso 4y ago
    5) Trust Python because it's driven by a community, not a corporation ? Same goes for trusting Vue.js instead of React (Meta) and Angular (Google).
stusmall 4y ago
It's MIT licensed. If they do then it can be forked and community maintained. It could be similar to the mass forking of projects when Oracle acquired Sun. .NET now has a way bigger community than a lot of those projects did and they thrived.
- cardanome 4y ago
  MIT does not have a patent-grant clause though. There is a good reason projects like the Rust Language are dual-licensed under MIT AND Apache2 because only the later protects you from software patent claims. So I wouldn't be so sure about MS not having any legal means to shut down forks. Even if they might not win in court, as long as they can make up something up, they still have enough legal war money to effectively shut down any unwanted fork just by threatening legal action.
  - omajid 4y ago
    Microsoft publishes a patent promise here, though: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/blob/main/PATENTS.TXT https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/blob/main/PATENTS.TXT
    - cardanome 4y ago
      "We promise not to sue you" is much weaker than a proper patent-grant. That promise seems only to apply if you use the .NET runtime. If you used a forked project, it might not apply. See also: https://endsoftwarepatents.org/2014/11/ms-net/ https://endsoftwarepatents.org/2014/11/ms-net/
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
Someone with strong negative opinions about Microsoft, but none about the FAANG companies, is usually struck in the past, maybe 20 years ago.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  FWIW, I'd approach other FAANG with the same "get ready to be betrayed" attitude I have to MS as well. Try to entrust as little as possible into their hands, but still do what's necessary to your business (i.e. don't be fanatical about it).
  - metaltyphoon 4y ago
    Alright, then let's hear: What is your go to stack?
    - tartoran 4y ago
      The stack could still be one of these; it’s just a reminder that betrayal will come and maybe not put all eggs in one basket type of things.
    - TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
      Not OP, but my favorite stack is Rails/Postgres/Linux. It doesn't get more open and less corporate-controlled than that these days. To enjoin OP, however, I get worried when I think about the GitHub acquisition. To me, GitHub was everything open and non-corporate, like my stack. Then Microsoft bought it, and now I fear that they will bring their MSDN "dev portal" schtick over to it. They've already started integrating LinkedIn into Outlook. They will probably be doing the same thing with GitHub in Visual Studio, and downplaying others (like GitLab). Will it affect my use? I don't know. I doubt it, but I wish I didn't feel like I need to be watching them like a hawk now, and be ready to move my code to another provider at short notice. The really stupid part? Out of other companies who could have bought it, and would be interested in it, Microsoft is probably the best choice. Certainly better than Oracle or Salesforce.
    - 4y ago
zenron 4y ago
Well I guess everyone should migrate their open source projects off github. Any day now...
- mikro2nd 4y ago
  Long since done.
- mrkeen 4y ago
  Yep. https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-coun...
- alexklarjr 4y ago
  I searched for any news regarding recent removal of MagiskOnWSA repo from github, but of course none found. Really nothing to worry about, instead look how easy to develop using powerful and free dotnet core|framework|. and deploy apps on Azure in just one click.
Salgat 4y ago
.NET Core is open source and any forks receive a perpetual license protecting it against any Microsoft patents, so long term it'll be just fine. The only thing Microsoft really controls with absolute authority is the trademark.

Meh. In the end, Microsoft will betray those who trusted it. Long term, better just to pretend it does not exist and never, ever depend on anything with Microsoft name on it.

elforce002 4y ago

I agree with you.

dnndev 4y ago

Not true. To blanket state microsoft is not reliable is ignorant. Anyhow, be on your way. I will continue using .net / c# for another decade.

mrkeen 4y ago
I hope it lasts that long. I picked up and used XNA for the global gamejam 2012. It wasn't a terrible experience, so I went to use it again for 2013 but they'd since killed it off.
- metaltyphoon 4y ago
  It has been already 2 decades. It will probably last another 2.
alexklarjr 4y ago
It was VB, Access and Sharepoint heavy marketed by MS evangelist drones as primary LOB tools just before Windows.NET The next .CLOUD or .AI frameworks is probably on its way in minds of board of directors. Microsoft is great in producing APIs and frameworks thats not last. And drones will happy to explain how powerful and simple things now.

the-lazy-guy 4y ago

Millions of businesses run on Microsoft platforms and software developed on/for Microsoft platforms for decades. I think you are painting darker picture than it really is. Or please elaborate a little what you mean by "betraying".

cabirum 4y ago
I believe, sooner or later, MS will put some arbitrary restrictions on .net or some part of its toolchain, forcing users to purchase a license to make it usable. It will probably involve "cloud" to sign/notarize your binaries to distribute them and give MS complete control of the ecosystem. Obviously, I have no idea what exactly will MS do, but after reaching some adoption target, MS will try to extract as much money as it can, because that's what they do. The other posters in this thread mentioned the debugger is still proprietary. Anyway, I'm not touching this.
- Hawxy 4y ago
  > MS will put some arbitrary restrictions on .net or some part of its toolchain. I doubt this. Microsoft's monetary strategy around .NET for a number is years has been "look at how easy you can deploy/run/monitor your .NET app on Azure!", I don't see that changing to anything else unless there's a massive change of priority and executive leadership at Microsoft.
- nonbirithm 4y ago
  Technically the restrictions already exist, just as a part of the development experience. - .NET Hot Reload is only implemented on Windows. It requires support in the .NET runtime, which is technically possible to implement, but the team has not gotten around to implementing it for years. This doesn't have to do with the issue around MS removing the "dotnet watch" command, it's for the "Edit and Continue" feature in IDEs.[1][2] - MS was considering deprecating Omnisharp, the open-source language server that implements C# support for VS Code, and replacing it with a closed-source version. Since the announcement, commits to omnisharp-vscode have dropped off significantly. The lack of Omnisharp would mean there would be no real open-source C# development environment for Linux anymore, since MonoDevelop was abandoned a few years ago.[3] [1] https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-31366/EditContinue-Support-for-non-Windows-OS https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-31366/EditContinu... [2] https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/issues/23685 https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/issues/23685 [3] https://github.com/omnisharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276 https://github.com/omnisharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276

RajT88 4y ago

I knew there'd be at least one of you guys in this thread.

labrador 4y ago
Like a "reply guy" on Twitter mansplaining Microsoft
metaltyphoon 4y ago
There always is. 1) Don't trust Go because of Google 2) Don't trust C#,F# because M$ (yes with dollar sign) 3) Don't trust Java because Oracle 4) You gotta use XXX tech, which has no jobs in your area Yada Yada... yet is probably using VSCode or GitHub. Just ignore it.
- InitEnabler 4y ago
  Yup. Basically the programming version of "No ethical consumption under capitalism." saying.
  - pxc 4y ago
    It's the opposite. > There is no ethical consumption under capitalism is said to de-emphasize or criticize arguments that are centered on consumer choice which is exactly what you and GP are doing by saying > You have no choice but to depend on big corporations for key software platforms; advising or choosing to stay away from this one or that one matters little
- nikanj 4y ago
  5) You gotta use unstable alpha because decades-in-production tools are obviously oldschool and thus slow
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- okso 4y ago
  5) Trust Python because it's driven by a community, not a corporation ? Same goes for trusting Vue.js instead of React (Meta) and Angular (Google).

stusmall 4y ago

It's MIT licensed. If they do then it can be forked and community maintained. It could be similar to the mass forking of projects when Oracle acquired Sun. .NET now has a way bigger community than a lot of those projects did and they thrived.

cardanome 4y ago
MIT does not have a patent-grant clause though. There is a good reason projects like the Rust Language are dual-licensed under MIT AND Apache2 because only the later protects you from software patent claims. So I wouldn't be so sure about MS not having any legal means to shut down forks. Even if they might not win in court, as long as they can make up something up, they still have enough legal war money to effectively shut down any unwanted fork just by threatening legal action.
- omajid 4y ago
  Microsoft publishes a patent promise here, though: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/blob/main/PATENTS.TXT https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/blob/main/PATENTS.TXT
  - cardanome 4y ago
    "We promise not to sue you" is much weaker than a proper patent-grant. That promise seems only to apply if you use the .NET runtime. If you used a forked project, it might not apply. See also: https://endsoftwarepatents.org/2014/11/ms-net/ https://endsoftwarepatents.org/2014/11/ms-net/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

Someone with strong negative opinions about Microsoft, but none about the FAANG companies, is usually struck in the past, maybe 20 years ago.

karamanolev 4y ago
FWIW, I'd approach other FAANG with the same "get ready to be betrayed" attitude I have to MS as well. Try to entrust as little as possible into their hands, but still do what's necessary to your business (i.e. don't be fanatical about it).
- metaltyphoon 4y ago
  Alright, then let's hear: What is your go to stack?
  - tartoran 4y ago
    The stack could still be one of these; it’s just a reminder that betrayal will come and maybe not put all eggs in one basket type of things.
  - TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    Not OP, but my favorite stack is Rails/Postgres/Linux. It doesn't get more open and less corporate-controlled than that these days. To enjoin OP, however, I get worried when I think about the GitHub acquisition. To me, GitHub was everything open and non-corporate, like my stack. Then Microsoft bought it, and now I fear that they will bring their MSDN "dev portal" schtick over to it. They've already started integrating LinkedIn into Outlook. They will probably be doing the same thing with GitHub in Visual Studio, and downplaying others (like GitLab). Will it affect my use? I don't know. I doubt it, but I wish I didn't feel like I need to be watching them like a hawk now, and be ready to move my code to another provider at short notice. The really stupid part? Out of other companies who could have bought it, and would be interested in it, Microsoft is probably the best choice. Certainly better than Oracle or Salesforce.
  - 4y ago

zenron 4y ago

Well I guess everyone should migrate their open source projects off github. Any day now...

mikro2nd 4y ago
Long since done.
mrkeen 4y ago
Yep. https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-coun...
alexklarjr 4y ago
I searched for any news regarding recent removal of MagiskOnWSA repo from github, but of course none found. Really nothing to worry about, instead look how easy to develop using powerful and free dotnet core|framework|. and deploy apps on Azure in just one click.

Salgat 4y ago

.NET Core is open source and any forks receive a perpetual license protecting it against any Microsoft patents, so long term it'll be just fine. The only thing Microsoft really controls with absolute authority is the trademark.