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My dad once told me of how at his work (in the 1980s or early 1990s, I think), they had a team of two Indians assigned to a project. One turned out to be of a m
by mcv 4y ago
My dad once told me of how at his work (in the 1980s or early 1990s, I think), they had a team of two Indians assigned to a project. One turned out to be of a much "higher" caste than the other, and refused to work with the other, making him utterly useless to the project.
It's good that Apple, IBM and other tech companies are taking steps to prevent this sort of discrimination. It's a shame that Google seems be going in the opposite direction.
- smcl 4y agoIt says in the article that Google (and Microsoft, Dell, Amazon + FB/Meta) aren't (yet?) implementing this, but I didn't see anything about them doing the opposite. Additionally I don't imagine they'd gain much from doing so, as a business. Is there any more info on this?
- pessimizer 4y ago
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> is not evidence of a bias Correct. But it is evidence someone doesn’t want to talk about this. That might mean anything from complicity to ignorance to not wanting more workplace drama. In every case, it gives merit to Googlers claiming caste discrimination needs an independent investigation. (Versus relying on the company’s processes.)
- DubiousPusher 4y ago> Where is their concern for other violence that is more prevalent? Isn't this just straightforward whataboutism? If every person that is advocating against a problem in society has to advocate against every problem in society they will never get anything accomplished because there is always another injustice.
- malfist 4y agoNot only is it just straightforward whataboutism, it's also implying, we as a society, can only work on one problem at a time. If we're tackling caste discrimination, we can't also be working to reduce violence. This is an either/or logical fallacy.
- happytoexplain 4y agoThis is a great example of the kind of hyper-reactivity that makes conversation on most of the internet absolutely impossible. The parent said they didn't see this in the article, don't imagine they'd gain from it, and asked for more info about it - all totally reasonable thoughts and expressed without negativity. And yet you responded with snide superiority, as though your dialogue with this person was already an argument before it even started.
- curiousllama 4y agoPessimizer should be more optimistic
- Moodles 4y ago100%. I found the books “how to have impossible conversations” and “crucial conversations” helpful for me, but in a nutshell they’re basically “say things in a way that protect the other side’s ego”
- politician 4y agoIs anyone working on ML to determine possible avenues of response and debate given a prompt?
- kokey 4y agoI would love to see some social networks silently implementing something that rewrites comments in a more diplomatic manner when displayed to everyone else.
- smcl 4y agoI think it was a fair question to ask, wasn’t it? Article says Google simply haven’t got an anti-caste-discrimination policy, someone says something implying that they’re actually getting worse re caste discrimination, so I ask for more info because that’s truly surprising.
- boppo1 4y agoWouldn't lose much either. I'd argue they'd gain face in today's climate. "DEI best practices aren't just for white people anymore" is probably a good look.
- rayiner 4y agoIronically it tends to be high caste Indians who push this stuff (perhaps because of higher education levels). Maybe they’ll be circumspect about dishing it out to white people after some sessions having to confess their “Brahmin privilege.”
- laretluval 4y agoI predict they’ll love the opportunity to indulge in theatrical ethnomasochism, just like high status whites do.
- zmgsabst 4y agoDiscussing your “privilege” while inflicting the costs to atone for it on others is the humble-brag version of racism: Wealthy whites are all too happy to brag about their privileges, while discriminating against poor whites to “atone” for that.
- tablespoon 4y ago>> Wouldn't lose much either. I'd argue they'd gain face in today's climate. "DEI best practices aren't just for white people anymore" is probably a good look. > Ironically it tends to be high caste Indians who push this stuff (perhaps because of higher education levels). High caste Indian immigrants or their American children? I have trouble imagining someone raised outside of the American cultural context getting enthusiastic about DEI in that way.
- spinningarrow 4y agoFrom the article: > Just a few months ago in June, Google, whose CEO Sundar Pichai has Indian roots, cancelled a talk on caste discrimination where Dalit rights activist Thenmozhi Soundararajan was supposed to give a presentation. The talk was organised by Google employee Tanuja Gupta. It’s not the opposite but probably what GP was referring to.
- mcv 4y agoIt's why I used the word "seems". It doesn't prove they're going the opposite direction, but it does give that impression. Hopefully Google is taking this issue more seriously.
- lambdasquirrel 4y agoA lot of racism is not explicit. Plausible deniability above all else.
- civilized 4y agoThey punished Tanuja Gupta for raising the issue, to the point where she resigned. https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-problem https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-pr... Google is taking the issue more seriously, but in an evil direction rather than a good one.
- throw_a_grenade 4y agoFor those who don't know how to recognise a caste from the name, does anyone have any idea which caste Google's CEO might represent? Can it even be definitely derived just from name?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gonehome 4y agoI remember reading that it’s a big problem at Cisco. In your dad’s example what ended up happening? From your description the guy who refused to work in the higher caste should be fired imo.
- mcv 4y agoI forgot what happened, but knowing my dad, he probably did it himself.
- stjohnswarts 4y agoI know who I would have fired without hesitation.
- Mo3 4y agoYeah. "Caste", "Color", doesn't matter, all the same shit. If someone sees a problem there, they're unfit for a lot of other stuff.
- codyb 4y agoMy good friend's Indian and she loved when I described the caste system as "just racism for people who look alike". Groups gonna group... it's good to see there's some pushback on the bullshit.
- stjohnswarts 4y agoAs usual it breaks down to tribalism and fear of "the other". It can cause racism, religious persecution, sexism, etc.
- civilized 4y agoAlong with anyone who found this a difficult decision once the facts were clear. People with these beliefs don't belong anywhere in society where they can oppress others. Just as white people who think blacks are beneath them do not belong in any setting where they can affect a black person.
- michaelt 4y agoI'm not surprised some people found it a difficult decision to be honest. I mean, discovering a new form of discrimination, which only Indians can perform? And none of your fellow managers have ever heard of this stuff? And you don't know WTF a caste is? And I doubt the accused is telling HR "yeah, I discriminate on caste, got a problem with that?" - they might instead be saying "some of his behaviour towards me has made me uncomfortable, I don't want to complain formally I just think everyone would be happier if we were on different projects" I can see why a person might decide that's not a minefield they're equipped to navigate, and pass the issue over to HR.
- known 4y ago
- throo121212 4y ago
- spaceman_2020 4y agoThe real shame is that living in Delhi, I’ve seen caste come back very strongly in everyday discourse. I’ve been here almost 20 years. This city used to be largely caste agnostic. Now when I meet new people, especially outside the elite tech circles, they will casually mention their upper caste status (“As Brahmins, we don’t do xyz of course!”). Even cars carrying caste stickers are more common.
- thorncorona 4y agoDo you know why this happened?
- spaceman_2020 4y agoReligion, especially in public life, has made a big comeback under the current ruling party. This party is also generally considered an upper-caste party. I assume much of it is due to implicit soft support from the ruling establishment.
- throwaway_1928 4y ago
- nirav72 4y agoModi is of lower caste. Most of the BJP leadership is lower caste.
- random314 4y agoModi is Vaishya or Brahmin - either upper or middle caste. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modh A lot of Vaishyas have been certifying themselves as Backward caste in order to obtain affirmative action privileges. Including the dominant caste in Gujarat, the Patels - with the Patidar movement. Modis were added to OBC list in 2002. This is a subversion of affirmative action which was meant to help lower castes, not upper castes. BJP is primarily composed of upper castes. Only performative functions like Presidency are granted to lower castes.
- throwthrow54321 4y ago