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That’s too cliche. As a counterpoint, HP and IBM are US firms and also get no shit done. And Japanese groups have their share of jerks, in spades. Issue is not

That’s too cliche. As a counterpoint, HP and IBM are US firms and also get no shit done. And Japanese groups have their share of jerks, in spades. Issue is not jerks vs consensus, it’s way more complicated than that.

brigandish 4y ago
If you mean cliché as in "widespread and pre-eminent" then I agree, because that it's a fair description of Japanese work culture. The jerk side of it is taken care of by the hierarchy, those who are above you may be a jerk to you, and those on a similar level will instead use passive aggressive tactics but are incredibly unlikely to be a Torvalds style jerk. If you want to point out where the extra complication is, I'd love to know.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The original comment was "no one ever criticized any decisions any team member made even if they were both impactful and objectively terrible." That is just false at every level you can imagine. I mean, could a developed country even function under this conditions ? Every team member in most companies would need to get it right in the first try a crazy amount of time for a company to have any reasonable profits, that's just crazy. On the jerkitude, yes you need to calibrate for the culture observed. They won't be shouting insanities in the open-space, but it's also way more direct that passive aggressiveness: spending 15 mins getting lectured by a coworker at your desk on why your last report is full of errors and you're not pulling your weight is basically as effective in context.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    > I mean, could a developed country even function under this conditions ? Have you worked in Japan?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      You need to go below the surface. That guy telling you he's just following the orders just doesn't give a shit about what you're trying to do and wants you to go away.
      - brigandish 4y ago
        So that's a no. From [1]: > Fear of Decisions > Decisions are the first step to failure, and nobody wants to fail. But decisions must be made. How does this dichotomy resolve itself? Meetings. Endless meetings and emails, planning documents, pre-planning documents, post-planning documents, meeting documents, and endless discussion of all the things by all the people all the time. The thinking goes, if everyone is involved in the decision-making process, then when something inevitably goes wrong, there’s no individual person to blame! Problem solved. Also from [1]: > Crowdthinking > If you are in a group of Japanese people and ask a question, you will sometimes witness the following sequence of events: > > Everybody looks around at other people > One person begins to suggest something slightly > Slight or emphatic agreement in a domino-effect across the group > > The need to protect social harmony is so deeply ingrained in society that sometimes even in friendly events this will happen, not just at work. This often works well for social questions, but anything work-related will probably best be asked 1:1. From [2]: > “It’s not only about the etiquette,” says Yuko Morimoto, a consultant with Japan Intercultural Consulting, a Japan-focused firm that helps foreign companies work effectively with each other. What’s really important is understanding the different styles of communication that different cultures have. Like American’s reputation for being direct. And the Japanese’ predilection for what Morimoto says is just the opposite. The Japanese, say Morimoto, often say no to saying no. > “They feel hesitant to say I don’t like your product,” Morimoto says. “So they say something like, ‘Oh that’s a good idea. Let us think about it.'” > “Yes” in Japan doesn’t mean the same thing as “yes” in English. Instead, notes Morimoto, it could mean, “We just met, and I don’t think it’s polite for me to say no right away.” > “Or they say, ‘Yes, yes.’ But yes means, ‘Yes, I’m hearing you.’ It doesn’t necessarily mean, ‘Yes, I like it,’” she says. “It can be yes-yes, or it can an iffy-yes, or it can be a no-yes.” > To decipher what’s really being said, you need more information, Morimoto says. Was another meeting scheduled? Was a price agreed on? Was a contract signed? The Japanese, she notes, are more risk-averse than Americans. They want consensus. So you can expect that a Japanese company will take its time making decisions and making sure everyone is on board with them. Finally, because I think I've helped you enough, every Thursday this[3] Reddit sub publishes a complaint thread. You can learn an awful lot about Japanese work culture from it, and from the regular posts about strange work behaviour, without ever having to leave your home. [1] https://xevix.medium.com/gaijin-engineer-in-tokyo-aaa9be8919b2 https://xevix.medium.com/gaijin-engineer-in-tokyo-aaa9be8919... [2] https://www.marketplace.org/2015/08/11/world/etiquette-and-rituals-rule-japans-business-culture/ https://www.marketplace.org/2015/08/11/world/etiquette-and-r... [3] https://teddit.net/r/japanlife/ https://teddit.net/r/japanlife/

brigandish 4y ago

If you mean cliché as in "widespread and pre-eminent" then I agree, because that it's a fair description of Japanese work culture. The jerk side of it is taken care of by the hierarchy, those who are above you may be a jerk to you, and those on a similar level will instead use passive aggressive tactics but are incredibly unlikely to be a Torvalds style jerk. If you want to point out where the extra complication is, I'd love to know.

makeitdouble 4y ago
The original comment was "no one ever criticized any decisions any team member made even if they were both impactful and objectively terrible." That is just false at every level you can imagine. I mean, could a developed country even function under this conditions ? Every team member in most companies would need to get it right in the first try a crazy amount of time for a company to have any reasonable profits, that's just crazy. On the jerkitude, yes you need to calibrate for the culture observed. They won't be shouting insanities in the open-space, but it's also way more direct that passive aggressiveness: spending 15 mins getting lectured by a coworker at your desk on why your last report is full of errors and you're not pulling your weight is basically as effective in context.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > I mean, could a developed country even function under this conditions ? Have you worked in Japan?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    You need to go below the surface. That guy telling you he's just following the orders just doesn't give a shit about what you're trying to do and wants you to go away.
    - brigandish 4y ago
      So that's a no. From [1]: > Fear of Decisions > Decisions are the first step to failure, and nobody wants to fail. But decisions must be made. How does this dichotomy resolve itself? Meetings. Endless meetings and emails, planning documents, pre-planning documents, post-planning documents, meeting documents, and endless discussion of all the things by all the people all the time. The thinking goes, if everyone is involved in the decision-making process, then when something inevitably goes wrong, there’s no individual person to blame! Problem solved. Also from [1]: > Crowdthinking > If you are in a group of Japanese people and ask a question, you will sometimes witness the following sequence of events: > > Everybody looks around at other people > One person begins to suggest something slightly > Slight or emphatic agreement in a domino-effect across the group > > The need to protect social harmony is so deeply ingrained in society that sometimes even in friendly events this will happen, not just at work. This often works well for social questions, but anything work-related will probably best be asked 1:1. From [2]: > “It’s not only about the etiquette,” says Yuko Morimoto, a consultant with Japan Intercultural Consulting, a Japan-focused firm that helps foreign companies work effectively with each other. What’s really important is understanding the different styles of communication that different cultures have. Like American’s reputation for being direct. And the Japanese’ predilection for what Morimoto says is just the opposite. The Japanese, say Morimoto, often say no to saying no. > “They feel hesitant to say I don’t like your product,” Morimoto says. “So they say something like, ‘Oh that’s a good idea. Let us think about it.'” > “Yes” in Japan doesn’t mean the same thing as “yes” in English. Instead, notes Morimoto, it could mean, “We just met, and I don’t think it’s polite for me to say no right away.” > “Or they say, ‘Yes, yes.’ But yes means, ‘Yes, I’m hearing you.’ It doesn’t necessarily mean, ‘Yes, I like it,’” she says. “It can be yes-yes, or it can an iffy-yes, or it can be a no-yes.” > To decipher what’s really being said, you need more information, Morimoto says. Was another meeting scheduled? Was a price agreed on? Was a contract signed? The Japanese, she notes, are more risk-averse than Americans. They want consensus. So you can expect that a Japanese company will take its time making decisions and making sure everyone is on board with them. Finally, because I think I've helped you enough, every Thursday this[3] Reddit sub publishes a complaint thread. You can learn an awful lot about Japanese work culture from it, and from the regular posts about strange work behaviour, without ever having to leave your home. [1] https://xevix.medium.com/gaijin-engineer-in-tokyo-aaa9be8919b2 https://xevix.medium.com/gaijin-engineer-in-tokyo-aaa9be8919... [2] https://www.marketplace.org/2015/08/11/world/etiquette-and-rituals-rule-japans-business-culture/ https://www.marketplace.org/2015/08/11/world/etiquette-and-r... [3] https://teddit.net/r/japanlife/ https://teddit.net/r/japanlife/