6 ms·

For me wfh has been something like the unpleasant social dynamics of a high school cafeteria, as opposed to the focused learning environment of the chemistry cl

For me wfh has been something like the unpleasant social dynamics of a high school cafeteria, as opposed to the focused learning environment of the chemistry classroom. I don’t miss the commute, but I miss the collaboration. Some companies will benefit, probably by lowering compensation, but overall I think productivity drops for teams. Some individuals win, but many lose, such as those with small children, or small apartments with two working adults etc, so I do not accept the workers’ rights argument.

Apocryphon 4y ago
True workers' rights would be allowing everyone to choose, at least on a team-by-team basis.
- mbil 4y ago
  This is correct. Workers rights come from the flexibility and trust that a remote-optional arrangement provides. I live in a small apartment with two working adults. I’d rather work from our kitchen table than from an open office. I believe that some people with small children like working from home because they can spend less on childcare and spend more time with their children. Individuals have a huge spectrum of changing wants and needs. Our working arrangements can and should be flexible.
  - wwarner 4y ago
    Ok I’ll bite. I don’t like the rights framing, and I don’t quite know what is meant by trust. I want to replace the word trust with information. Information doesn’t flow along the edges if the org chart, nor does it flow down from manager to employee. It’s moving between individuals horizontally and vertically, and also between groups. For anyone to be effective, they have to know what’s going on, where the project is heading, what’s crucial and what’s expendable. Working in isolation is just not conducive to building an intuition for this team awareness. All the trust in the world isn’t going to cut through the misinformation and confusion that accumulates while people are out of the office, working hard on the wrong thing.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      The thing is, Apple's internal corporate culture runs opposite to this sort of free flow of information.
strikelaserclaw 4y ago
i mean if you live in a super expensive area (bay area) and you get to WFH from your shitty apartment/condo/house that you barely afforded, then i think you aren't getting the full benefits of WFH.
- wwarner 4y ago
  I think you’re saying that to get the most value from remote work, ICs have to move to low cost areas. That’s asking a lot from people who left their home towns (or home countries) to live in a software hub. But it’s a non sequitur anyway, since basically nobody seems to want to go back to the office, regardless of where they live.
- astrange 4y ago
  Since the US is laid out horizontally, that’s the only way for everyone to be in the same time zone.

Apocryphon 4y ago

True workers' rights would be allowing everyone to choose, at least on a team-by-team basis.

mbil 4y ago
This is correct. Workers rights come from the flexibility and trust that a remote-optional arrangement provides. I live in a small apartment with two working adults. I’d rather work from our kitchen table than from an open office. I believe that some people with small children like working from home because they can spend less on childcare and spend more time with their children. Individuals have a huge spectrum of changing wants and needs. Our working arrangements can and should be flexible.
- wwarner 4y ago
  Ok I’ll bite. I don’t like the rights framing, and I don’t quite know what is meant by trust. I want to replace the word trust with information. Information doesn’t flow along the edges if the org chart, nor does it flow down from manager to employee. It’s moving between individuals horizontally and vertically, and also between groups. For anyone to be effective, they have to know what’s going on, where the project is heading, what’s crucial and what’s expendable. Working in isolation is just not conducive to building an intuition for this team awareness. All the trust in the world isn’t going to cut through the misinformation and confusion that accumulates while people are out of the office, working hard on the wrong thing.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    The thing is, Apple's internal corporate culture runs opposite to this sort of free flow of information.

strikelaserclaw 4y ago

i mean if you live in a super expensive area (bay area) and you get to WFH from your shitty apartment/condo/house that you barely afforded, then i think you aren't getting the full benefits of WFH.

wwarner 4y ago
I think you’re saying that to get the most value from remote work, ICs have to move to low cost areas. That’s asking a lot from people who left their home towns (or home countries) to live in a software hub. But it’s a non sequitur anyway, since basically nobody seems to want to go back to the office, regardless of where they live.
astrange 4y ago
Since the US is laid out horizontally, that’s the only way for everyone to be in the same time zone.