4 ms·

Is there a country you would point to as a good model for free market healthcare? Because healthcare seems like a market prone to be abused by market forces be

by slg 4y ago

Is there a country you would point to as a good model for free market healthcare? Because healthcare seems like a market prone to be abused by market forces because the demand for it is often inelastic. For example, the free market price for insulin is basically infinite because type 1 diabetics need a constant supply of it or else they die. Judging by the price of insulin in the US compared to our peer nations, it seems like the US's problem is too free of a market rather than it being too restricted.

WalterBright 4y ago
The US before 1968. Insulin is heavily regulated by the FDA, making competition very difficult.
- slg 4y ago
  So would you say that other countries in which insulin is cheaper have a healthcare industry that is a freer market than the US?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Other countries are not controlled by FDA regulations.
    - slg 4y ago
      Sure, but they have their own FDA equivalent with their own regulations. Why are the regulations in the US more harmful than the regulations elsewhere?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Regulatory barriers to competition: https://www.t1international.com/blog/2019/01/20/why-insulin-so-expensive/ https://www.t1international.com/blog/2019/01/20/why-insulin-... https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/12/10/insulin-drug-prices https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/12/10/insulin-drug-pric...
        slg 4y ago
        Many of those issues are not specific to the US. So are you arguing for doing away with drug patents or something? That is rarely an argument I see from someone praising free markets.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Warning about above poster: they believe slavery is free-market. Of course people active in free-market discussion know that patents as government imposed forced monopoly against people that never entered a contract with the "patent-holder" are staunchly opposed by many free market thinkers, including individuals such as Murray Rothbard. Again in SLG's bad-faith quest to make free-markets about slavery and monopolies, he uses his exceptional intelligence in attempts to trick the naive reader into a false view about free markets. > countries in which insulin is cheaper have a healthcare industry that is a freer market than the US? Here we see the fallacious slight of hand, where OP attempts to deceive audience by using PRICE OF A SINGLE GOOD to measure whether THE ENTIRE MARKET OF HEALTHCARE is "freer."
        slg 4y ago
        >Again in SLG's bad-faith quest to make free-markets about slavery and monopolies, Yeah, I'm the one acting in bad faith... My comment about patents was because in the US political sphere "free market" and is often code for "pro-business" so I was checking which meaning WalterBright was using.
notch656a 4y ago
>For example, the free market price for insulin is basically infinite because type 1 diabetics need a constant supply of it or else they die. I've been to places in the Philippines where all available water is either on private property or being sold by private vendors. The price of water did not go to infinity, in fact you could buy a 1L bottle for something like 10 pesos, which is like $0.20. I'm not so sure a free market for necessities results in infinite price. If the price were truly near-infinite the entire economy of workers and capital would flock to it in seek of infinite profits and competition would become fierce.
- slg 4y ago
  >I've been to places in the Philippines where all available water is either on private property or being sold by private vendors. The price of water did not go to infinity, in fact you could buy a 1L bottle for something like 10 pesos, which is like $0.20. The "basically" there was meant to show that I was being somewhat facetious. There are of course other factors at play. First the supplier wants to maximize profit and not price. The highest price doesn't necessarily yield the highest profit if it prices some people out of the market. Also a small group can't maintain a monopoly over a necessity required by a large group without facing a literal revolt. However when the group being taken advantage of is small, resistance becomes much more difficult to achieve. It is a lot easier to oppress the 0.5% of the population that is a type 1 diabetic than the 100% of the population that needs water. >If the price were truly near-infinite the entire economy of workers and capital would flock to it in seek of infinite profits and competition would become fierce. This would depend on some basic Economics 101 assumptions being true such as a commodity product in an industry with low barrier to entry and no economies of scale. Those assumptions rarely hold in the real world, especially in healthcare.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    In insulin sales the biggest barriers are regulatory. I thought you were talking about the free market, not the regulated market.
    - 4y ago

by slg 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

The US before 1968. Insulin is heavily regulated by the FDA, making competition very difficult.

slg 4y ago
So would you say that other countries in which insulin is cheaper have a healthcare industry that is a freer market than the US?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Other countries are not controlled by FDA regulations.
  - slg 4y ago
    Sure, but they have their own FDA equivalent with their own regulations. Why are the regulations in the US more harmful than the regulations elsewhere?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Regulatory barriers to competition: https://www.t1international.com/blog/2019/01/20/why-insulin-so-expensive/ https://www.t1international.com/blog/2019/01/20/why-insulin-... https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/12/10/insulin-drug-prices https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/12/10/insulin-drug-pric...
      - slg 4y ago
        Many of those issues are not specific to the US. So are you arguing for doing away with drug patents or something? That is rarely an argument I see from someone praising free markets.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Warning about above poster: they believe slavery is free-market. Of course people active in free-market discussion know that patents as government imposed forced monopoly against people that never entered a contract with the "patent-holder" are staunchly opposed by many free market thinkers, including individuals such as Murray Rothbard. Again in SLG's bad-faith quest to make free-markets about slavery and monopolies, he uses his exceptional intelligence in attempts to trick the naive reader into a false view about free markets. > countries in which insulin is cheaper have a healthcare industry that is a freer market than the US? Here we see the fallacious slight of hand, where OP attempts to deceive audience by using PRICE OF A SINGLE GOOD to measure whether THE ENTIRE MARKET OF HEALTHCARE is "freer."
        slg 4y ago
        >Again in SLG's bad-faith quest to make free-markets about slavery and monopolies, Yeah, I'm the one acting in bad faith... My comment about patents was because in the US political sphere "free market" and is often code for "pro-business" so I was checking which meaning WalterBright was using.

notch656a 4y ago

>For example, the free market price for insulin is basically infinite because type 1 diabetics need a constant supply of it or else they die. I've been to places in the Philippines where all available water is either on private property or being sold by private vendors. The price of water did not go to infinity, in fact you could buy a 1L bottle for something like 10 pesos, which is like $0.20. I'm not so sure a free market for necessities results in infinite price. If the price were truly near-infinite the entire economy of workers and capital would flock to it in seek of infinite profits and competition would become fierce.

slg 4y ago
>I've been to places in the Philippines where all available water is either on private property or being sold by private vendors. The price of water did not go to infinity, in fact you could buy a 1L bottle for something like 10 pesos, which is like $0.20. The "basically" there was meant to show that I was being somewhat facetious. There are of course other factors at play. First the supplier wants to maximize profit and not price. The highest price doesn't necessarily yield the highest profit if it prices some people out of the market. Also a small group can't maintain a monopoly over a necessity required by a large group without facing a literal revolt. However when the group being taken advantage of is small, resistance becomes much more difficult to achieve. It is a lot easier to oppress the 0.5% of the population that is a type 1 diabetic than the 100% of the population that needs water. >If the price were truly near-infinite the entire economy of workers and capital would flock to it in seek of infinite profits and competition would become fierce. This would depend on some basic Economics 101 assumptions being true such as a commodity product in an industry with low barrier to entry and no economies of scale. Those assumptions rarely hold in the real world, especially in healthcare.
- notch656a 4y ago
  In insulin sales the biggest barriers are regulatory. I thought you were talking about the free market, not the regulated market.
  - 4y ago