5 ms·

The moment you have a publicly facing API you are saying "these are the rules to talk to us". It doesn't matter what the client is, if it follows the rules then

The moment you have a publicly facing API you are saying "these are the rules to talk to us". It doesn't matter what the client is, if it follows the rules then it should work. A website is a publicly facing API and if two different browsers can talk the HTTP protocol and implement all the other APIs the website requires then you shouldn't be blocked from accessing the website through one of them

tptacek 4y ago
You're not really answering my question. "One of the rules of this API is that you exclusively use this client" is an expressible rule. What gives you the right to dictate the terms that other people build by? I don't understand the principle here.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  I'll explain why I want the right to dictate the terms by which software on my computer talks to software on other people's computers. It's because it's relatively easy to customize local software to work in ways I and other people want it to, and the only thing stopping us from doing so is arbitrary draconian laws and rules. This results in situations where you can't access a lot of straightforward websites and services unless you download an "app" that's actually just a wrapper around a web browser and a bunch of spyware, and it makes it impossible for people with various minor disabilities to use a lot of services comfortably. The rule right now is "Any jerkoff can dictate what is and isn't allowed to run on my computer" and I would like to change that rule to "I'm in charge of what runs on my computer, you're in charge of what runs on your computer".
  - prvit 4y ago
    > and I would like to change that rule to "I'm in charge of what runs on my computer, you're in charge of what runs on your computer". Who is forcing you to install Discord?
    - spion 4y ago
      A study group, a programming community, any social group that you want to be a part of and they've decided to use Discord. Don't like the Discord client or have trouble using it? Pay the price of not participating in dozens of communities you would like to participate in.
      - prvit 4y ago
        Maybe take it up with those communities?
        maskros 4y ago
        Or maybe we can just have interoperability and open systems so all users can be happy, and don't have to choose between being obnoxious social outcasts or bow down in total obedience to the surveillance capitalists?
        Jetrel 4y ago
        The problem is that all users aren't happy. Having used federated services for years, they're never in synch, and some users always have access to some features that other users don't have. In fact, the problem is chiefly that a certain group of assholes never upgrade their clients, ever, and disingenuously try to keep everyone on an old version of the protocol, because they don't see a need for new features. Period. I've been through this gauntlet with some long-running open-source projects, and basically these guys were like "plain text and command-line should be sufficient for everyone (and shame on you if it's not!)". Of course, that's fine if you're a programmer, but then these guys were SHOCKED - shocked, I say, that people's whose primary working medium was images rather than text - you know, UI designers and artists - found it a struggle to work on their project and quickly gave up. This kind of bigotry constantly stifles progress in the OSS community. --- There's a damn good reason no federated service even comes remotely close to Discord, and it's because despite all of those features being developed for other clients, repeatedly, there is always heavy social pressure not to leave people out, so "newfangled" features get swatted down by communities, and people are forced to only use the features that everyone supports. You can have IRC that supports pasting images just fine, but some asshole's client doesn't support it, so you're back to using a shithole solution like external pastebins or personal FTP servers, again. Otherwise you're dealing with a constant "I don't see anything! Why can't you just use something that works on my client!" --- So no, "interoperability and open systems" doesn't mean all users can be happy. It's a trojan horse to let luddites force obsolete versions of the protocol on everyone because they don't want to update.
  - citizenkeen 4y ago
    While I understand your sentiment, no jerkoff is dictating what is and isn't allowed to run on your computer. You're always welcome to use something other than Discord.
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      At certain size companies should become platforms. Discord is just about there I feel.
  - cartesius13 4y ago
    You are in charge of what runs on your computer, nobody is forcing you to use Discord. There's no jerk dictating what is allowed to run on your computer, there's someone offering a piece of software that you can willingly install on your computer if you want. If you don't want that, you're always free to not use the software or use workarounds to avoid the things you don't like. I, for example, hate ads and use adblock always. But I don't think it's fair for me to go and say that everyone should forced to not put ads on their stuff. I'm not a fan but I understand that I have no right to dictate what people do with their software
    - spion 4y ago
      This is not true for platforms. If a community decides they're going to use Discord, then you, the individual, are out of luck. You either use that or miss out on the community or convince the entire community not to use Discord.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        How is that different from, say, being forced to buy a PS5 or an X-whatever to participate in a gaming community, or to get a Spotify membership to hear a particular podcast?
        spion 4y ago
        They aren't very different. With Spotify we actually gave up a lot of power that custom clients had for the lowest-common-denominator sort of stuff, which is really sad. With each of these products we keep giving up more and more of the powerful variety that was available before. While the average person doesn't lose much, the average person doesn't really exist and we've really lost a lot of long tails of value.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I see the potential value, I just don't understand the principle that enables us to dictate that private companies provide it to us.
  - systoll 4y ago
    The terms of service are just Discord being transparent about what they’re doing. The thing actually stopping you from using Discord with a third-party client is that Discord’s server software responds differently to the way the third-party clients talk to it. You’re in charge of what runs on your computer, and they're in charge of what runs on theirs.
    - dancemethis 4y ago
      They are not transparent, since it's proprietary software. The likelihood they sell/yield personal user data/metadata is too high to ignore.
- HidyBush 4y ago
  How can a server know I'm using a different client if all the features are implemented? The condition that you may not use a third party client cannot be imposed by the API but is stipulated externally.

tptacek 4y ago

You're not really answering my question. "One of the rules of this API is that you exclusively use this client" is an expressible rule. What gives you the right to dictate the terms that other people build by? I don't understand the principle here.

Firmwarrior 4y ago
I'll explain why I want the right to dictate the terms by which software on my computer talks to software on other people's computers. It's because it's relatively easy to customize local software to work in ways I and other people want it to, and the only thing stopping us from doing so is arbitrary draconian laws and rules. This results in situations where you can't access a lot of straightforward websites and services unless you download an "app" that's actually just a wrapper around a web browser and a bunch of spyware, and it makes it impossible for people with various minor disabilities to use a lot of services comfortably. The rule right now is "Any jerkoff can dictate what is and isn't allowed to run on my computer" and I would like to change that rule to "I'm in charge of what runs on my computer, you're in charge of what runs on your computer".
- prvit 4y ago
  > and I would like to change that rule to "I'm in charge of what runs on my computer, you're in charge of what runs on your computer". Who is forcing you to install Discord?
  - spion 4y ago
    A study group, a programming community, any social group that you want to be a part of and they've decided to use Discord. Don't like the Discord client or have trouble using it? Pay the price of not participating in dozens of communities you would like to participate in.
    - prvit 4y ago
      Maybe take it up with those communities?
      - maskros 4y ago
        Or maybe we can just have interoperability and open systems so all users can be happy, and don't have to choose between being obnoxious social outcasts or bow down in total obedience to the surveillance capitalists?
        Jetrel 4y ago
        The problem is that all users aren't happy. Having used federated services for years, they're never in synch, and some users always have access to some features that other users don't have. In fact, the problem is chiefly that a certain group of assholes never upgrade their clients, ever, and disingenuously try to keep everyone on an old version of the protocol, because they don't see a need for new features. Period. I've been through this gauntlet with some long-running open-source projects, and basically these guys were like "plain text and command-line should be sufficient for everyone (and shame on you if it's not!)". Of course, that's fine if you're a programmer, but then these guys were SHOCKED - shocked, I say, that people's whose primary working medium was images rather than text - you know, UI designers and artists - found it a struggle to work on their project and quickly gave up. This kind of bigotry constantly stifles progress in the OSS community. --- There's a damn good reason no federated service even comes remotely close to Discord, and it's because despite all of those features being developed for other clients, repeatedly, there is always heavy social pressure not to leave people out, so "newfangled" features get swatted down by communities, and people are forced to only use the features that everyone supports. You can have IRC that supports pasting images just fine, but some asshole's client doesn't support it, so you're back to using a shithole solution like external pastebins or personal FTP servers, again. Otherwise you're dealing with a constant "I don't see anything! Why can't you just use something that works on my client!" --- So no, "interoperability and open systems" doesn't mean all users can be happy. It's a trojan horse to let luddites force obsolete versions of the protocol on everyone because they don't want to update.
- citizenkeen 4y ago
  While I understand your sentiment, no jerkoff is dictating what is and isn't allowed to run on your computer. You're always welcome to use something other than Discord.
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    At certain size companies should become platforms. Discord is just about there I feel.
- cartesius13 4y ago
  You are in charge of what runs on your computer, nobody is forcing you to use Discord. There's no jerk dictating what is allowed to run on your computer, there's someone offering a piece of software that you can willingly install on your computer if you want. If you don't want that, you're always free to not use the software or use workarounds to avoid the things you don't like. I, for example, hate ads and use adblock always. But I don't think it's fair for me to go and say that everyone should forced to not put ads on their stuff. I'm not a fan but I understand that I have no right to dictate what people do with their software
  - spion 4y ago
    This is not true for platforms. If a community decides they're going to use Discord, then you, the individual, are out of luck. You either use that or miss out on the community or convince the entire community not to use Discord.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      How is that different from, say, being forced to buy a PS5 or an X-whatever to participate in a gaming community, or to get a Spotify membership to hear a particular podcast?
      - spion 4y ago
        They aren't very different. With Spotify we actually gave up a lot of power that custom clients had for the lowest-common-denominator sort of stuff, which is really sad. With each of these products we keep giving up more and more of the powerful variety that was available before. While the average person doesn't lose much, the average person doesn't really exist and we've really lost a lot of long tails of value.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I see the potential value, I just don't understand the principle that enables us to dictate that private companies provide it to us.
- systoll 4y ago
  The terms of service are just Discord being transparent about what they’re doing. The thing actually stopping you from using Discord with a third-party client is that Discord’s server software responds differently to the way the third-party clients talk to it. You’re in charge of what runs on your computer, and they're in charge of what runs on theirs.
  - dancemethis 4y ago
    They are not transparent, since it's proprietary software. The likelihood they sell/yield personal user data/metadata is too high to ignore.
HidyBush 4y ago
How can a server know I'm using a different client if all the features are implemented? The condition that you may not use a third party client cannot be imposed by the API but is stipulated externally.