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It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works by default, you install the softw

It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works by default, you install the software you need and that's it. It's not perfect even now but it's much better. I rarely have to pop into the terminal to tinker with a system config file now. We don't have 20 years to wait when it comes to free software phones. The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker and stuff but everything should just work before you can even consider it a daily driver. I haven't personally used Librem or Pinephone so I don't know how far along they are in terms of user experience (not developer experience).

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
I have not used Librem, but I own a Pinephone. Anecdotally, while the initial impression of community edition was not great ( I personally blame ubuntu as default OS ), I eventually tried PostmarketOS ( on HN recommendation actually ) and I am now going through side by side testing with my work phone as a backup. For basic stuff ( phone, text, light net use ) it works. It is not polished. It is very much underpowered.. but there is something to be said for having that level of control over a machine. I think I agree with you; it will take take time the same way it did with desktop linux. Still, I am more optimistic now.. we are starting to have real options outside of the duopoly forced down humanity's throats. And.. even if you are not ready to jump onto new hardware, you can install Kali linux in Android now[1]. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts
- squarefoot 4y ago
  > you can install Kali linux in Android now This solves some problems (running Linux UI and apps) but leaves some very important others unaddressed (security). The point isn't just installing Linux but also removing from devices every piece of non free -as in not open, therefore non auditable and by extension not trustworthy- piece of firmware/OS/software. The hardest part is achieving that goal and many initiatives are struggling to get as close as possible to that point. As a Linux guy, I would love being able to turn a spyware ridden phone into a 100% open Linux platform, but if someone said like that it can be done, but they're using *BSD, or Haiku, or whatewer 100% open OS out there, that would be great anyway.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    I don't disagree, but it is important to have options to match various use cases. Even few years ago, it would not be feasible just in terms CPU power to run another OS on top of Android. So while it does not address some issues ( and one could argue create some new ones ), it is overall a positive development. We want more people looking at it from different angles and saying something along the lines of: "God damn it. The current status quo is not working for me. Let me change it." I applaud such effort in that space. Fake Android/Apple choice aggravates me.
eitland 4y ago
Linux has worked much better out of the box than Windows for a number of applications since at least a 2006. Don't confuse Windows, - slipstreamed and supported by a competent IT department - with what a user gets out of the box from an OEM. Please note: I have supported users on Windows from 1995 to somewhere after 2012 (a little bit blurry). Just saying "you don't know what you are talking about" won't cut it.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  You can't know what you are talking about? Your experience supporting Windows users isn't all encompassing, you defined no criteria whatsoever for "better out of the box", you didn't define any of the applications... the list goes on. Take ease of install. I assure you in 2006 Linux was not as easy to install as it is today when it comes to things like having working power management. Even something as basic as having a computer successfully go to sleep and come back with working wifi was often a challenge. Or take gaming. Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there. Or making a simple word document that renders the same way on Window user's PCs as it does on yours. I was one of those people trying to force OpenOffice/LibreOffice and there was nothing more fun than chasing down weird issues when a Windows user using one of the most popular word editors on earth couldn't properly render your document... The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    >Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there. It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them halfway. >The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users. Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior (see halloween documents, windows refund day, etc.). You would be hard-pressed to buy a laptop or something without paying for microsoft's license- they have deals with all the manufacturers to stop competition before it even happens. Microsoft is sitting on top of a massive cash cow. They will continue to plunder their user-base with ads and spyware, and they will continue neglect their responsibilities as a custodian to the extent that it improves their numbers in some board-room meeting. The "value-offering" of windows will get so bad that users might switch to linux/wine or reactOS. They might not switch now, but here's the way I see it: linux will only improve and windows will only get worse. It's not over until the fat lady sings.
rascul 4y ago
> It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works by default, you install the software you need and that's it. Only took about 5 years for me. And that's probably only because I didn't know about it until '96.
pengaru 4y ago
> The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker and stuff but everything should just work before you can even consider it a daily driver. This is no different than the stuff people said about desktop/personal computers in the pre-smartphone days. And yet plenty of us used linux desktops to participate in a web-centric society without significant trouble while preserving our computing freedoms. What you're referring to as "phones" aren't even phones. For the vast majority of smartphone users making phone calls is rarely if ever done, despite carrying these devices 24x7x365. Hell they're not even capable of making phone calls anywhere near the low-latency high-quality experience of (land-line) phones. They're computers without keyboards on a wireless network, plain and simple. And computers are "meant" to be hacked upon.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

I have not used Librem, but I own a Pinephone. Anecdotally, while the initial impression of community edition was not great ( I personally blame ubuntu as default OS ), I eventually tried PostmarketOS ( on HN recommendation actually ) and I am now going through side by side testing with my work phone as a backup. For basic stuff ( phone, text, light net use ) it works. It is not polished. It is very much underpowered.. but there is something to be said for having that level of control over a machine. I think I agree with you; it will take take time the same way it did with desktop linux. Still, I am more optimistic now.. we are starting to have real options outside of the duopoly forced down humanity's throats. And.. even if you are not ready to jump onto new hardware, you can install Kali linux in Android now[1]. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts

squarefoot 4y ago
> you can install Kali linux in Android now This solves some problems (running Linux UI and apps) but leaves some very important others unaddressed (security). The point isn't just installing Linux but also removing from devices every piece of non free -as in not open, therefore non auditable and by extension not trustworthy- piece of firmware/OS/software. The hardest part is achieving that goal and many initiatives are struggling to get as close as possible to that point. As a Linux guy, I would love being able to turn a spyware ridden phone into a 100% open Linux platform, but if someone said like that it can be done, but they're using *BSD, or Haiku, or whatewer 100% open OS out there, that would be great anyway.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  I don't disagree, but it is important to have options to match various use cases. Even few years ago, it would not be feasible just in terms CPU power to run another OS on top of Android. So while it does not address some issues ( and one could argue create some new ones ), it is overall a positive development. We want more people looking at it from different angles and saying something along the lines of: "God damn it. The current status quo is not working for me. Let me change it." I applaud such effort in that space. Fake Android/Apple choice aggravates me.

eitland 4y ago

Linux has worked much better out of the box than Windows for a number of applications since at least a 2006. Don't confuse Windows, - slipstreamed and supported by a competent IT department - with what a user gets out of the box from an OEM. Please note: I have supported users on Windows from 1995 to somewhere after 2012 (a little bit blurry). Just saying "you don't know what you are talking about" won't cut it.

BoorishBears 4y ago
You can't know what you are talking about? Your experience supporting Windows users isn't all encompassing, you defined no criteria whatsoever for "better out of the box", you didn't define any of the applications... the list goes on. Take ease of install. I assure you in 2006 Linux was not as easy to install as it is today when it comes to things like having working power management. Even something as basic as having a computer successfully go to sleep and come back with working wifi was often a challenge. Or take gaming. Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there. Or making a simple word document that renders the same way on Window user's PCs as it does on yours. I was one of those people trying to force OpenOffice/LibreOffice and there was nothing more fun than chasing down weird issues when a Windows user using one of the most popular word editors on earth couldn't properly render your document... The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
- cowtools 4y ago
  >Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there. It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them halfway. >The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users. Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior (see halloween documents, windows refund day, etc.). You would be hard-pressed to buy a laptop or something without paying for microsoft's license- they have deals with all the manufacturers to stop competition before it even happens. Microsoft is sitting on top of a massive cash cow. They will continue to plunder their user-base with ads and spyware, and they will continue neglect their responsibilities as a custodian to the extent that it improves their numbers in some board-room meeting. The "value-offering" of windows will get so bad that users might switch to linux/wine or reactOS. They might not switch now, but here's the way I see it: linux will only improve and windows will only get worse. It's not over until the fat lady sings.

rascul 4y ago

> It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works by default, you install the software you need and that's it. Only took about 5 years for me. And that's probably only because I didn't know about it until '96.

pengaru 4y ago

> The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker and stuff but everything should just work before you can even consider it a daily driver. This is no different than the stuff people said about desktop/personal computers in the pre-smartphone days. And yet plenty of us used linux desktops to participate in a web-centric society without significant trouble while preserving our computing freedoms. What you're referring to as "phones" aren't even phones. For the vast majority of smartphone users making phone calls is rarely if ever done, despite carrying these devices 24x7x365. Hell they're not even capable of making phone calls anywhere near the low-latency high-quality experience of (land-line) phones. They're computers without keyboards on a wireless network, plain and simple. And computers are "meant" to be hacked upon.