4 ms·

This seems like an ok time to plug a policy idea I have. I think an alternative to raising minimum wage is to require all companies to offer a lot of paid vaca

This seems like an ok time to plug a policy idea I have. I think an alternative to raising minimum wage is to require all companies to offer a lot of paid vacation, like 3 or 4 months of paid vacation every year. If people need more money, they can use their paid vacation time to work a second job. They'd be working the same 40-hours a week, but would receive double pay, thus increasing their income. It would also increase their security and market mobility because they have 2 jobs. If one job is treating them shitty, then they at least have a second job and more opportunity to get out. It would create more competition among employers to hold onto employees. People will put up with a lot when you're their sole source of food, but if you provide only a portion of their income, you will have to treat workers better. It would also have a lot of mental health and family benefits throughout all rungs of society, except for the most well off, who already have unlimited PTO. This idea has received more downvotes overall (which is simply to say it's unpopular), but I've never had anyone explain what they don't like about it.

georgewsinger 4y ago
So your proposal is: if one consenting adult wants to pay another consenting adult for working more than 8-9 months out of the year, then one (or both) of them should be kidnapped and sent to prison?[1] Yeah, that sounds insane. [1] The logical consequence of breaking your proposal, were it codified into law.
- Buttons840 4y ago
  Your point seems to be that regulating employers is insane. Do you oppose all employer regulations then? What do you think should happen if two consenting adults, one of which is desperate for food, agree to an arrangement where one is paid 3 dollars per hour in exchange for hard work?
  - georgewsinger 4y ago
    > Do you oppose all employer regulations then? Yes. > What do you think should happen if two consenting adults, one of which is desperate for food, agree to an arrangement where one is paid 3 dollars per hour in exchange for work? I think this should be legal, for if it were illegal, then someone would be getting paid $0/hour (which is less than $3/hour) for no work being done at all. To cut to the chase: you should just ask me what should happen if someone has exhausted all avenues for sustenance, and failed. Then what should they do? Should they starve? My answer is: no, it would be morally justified for them to steal resources (i.e. food) from other non-consenting adults in order for them not to die under extreme circumstances like this. But notice that we'd still deem it as "justified theft" (where the theft is still intrinsically wrong, but justified under the extreme circumstances). Fortunately, "extreme circumstances" are not the conditions we're living under in developed Western countries, where even the poorest people live fabulously wealthy in comparison to almost everyone in human history. In particular, there doesn't seem to be any need to mandate (under literal threat of kidnap & imprisonment) that people not work more than 9 months per year. That sounds totally insane, especially since no one is forcing anyone to work 12 months per year anyway.
    - Buttons840 4y ago
      I see where you're coming from. I proposed it as an idea, and specifically an alternative idea to forever raising minimum wage over the decades. In that regard your counter argument of "eliminate minimum wage and all regulations" is outside the realm I was arguing in.
notahacker 4y ago
I didn't downvote, but something which is spectacularly disruptive to companies and means low paid workers don't get any more money unless they find someone that wants to hire them for only 3 months at a time seems like a complete non-starter.
- Buttons840 4y ago
  That's fair. Also some people might not want two jobs.
- layer8 4y ago
  The companies employing them for their primary job might be interested, in order to fill their 3-month vacancy…
rad_gruchalski 4y ago
> I think an alternative to raising minimum wage is to require all companies to offer a lot of paid vacation, like 3 or 4 months of paid vacation every year. > If people need more money, they can use their paid vacation time to work a second job. They'd be working the same 40-hours a week, but would receive double pay, thus increasing their income. I’m sorry to jump out at your comment with this but where do you think companies take the money to pay salaries from? Because they don’t print it. This trend of “we want money and don’t want to work” was magnified during covid and now it spirals out to a completely grotesque level. If people think it’s so easy to find paying customers to pay for “no work”, why don’t they all just go solo? No, instead everyone wants to have safety of not having to think where to get paying work from but also get paid for not having to do much. Eat a cookie and have a cookie.
- Buttons840 4y ago
  That's why I propose it as an alternative to raising minimum wage. Iff we're going to force employers to give more, I'd rather see it done through more paid vacation.
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    If you're going to force employers to give more, a lot of them will just close shop and you'll end up with massive unemployment. You can propose all you want, but if you want it to have the desired effect, you actually need to think through it and consult experts.
    - buck4roo 4y ago
      > If you're going to force employers to give more, a lot of them will just close shop and you'll end up with massive unemployment. Strawman argument. See: countries that already have said 30+days of paid vacation -- without "massive unemployment" (read: France, Germany). > You can propose all you want, but if you want it to have the desired effect, you actually need to think through it I'd say the GP has done this and explained it well... but you have avoided its main proposals. > and consult experts. Of which, you are definitely not one (read: an expert).

georgewsinger 4y ago

So your proposal is: if one consenting adult wants to pay another consenting adult for working more than 8-9 months out of the year, then one (or both) of them should be kidnapped and sent to prison?[1] Yeah, that sounds insane. [1] The logical consequence of breaking your proposal, were it codified into law.

Buttons840 4y ago
Your point seems to be that regulating employers is insane. Do you oppose all employer regulations then? What do you think should happen if two consenting adults, one of which is desperate for food, agree to an arrangement where one is paid 3 dollars per hour in exchange for hard work?
- georgewsinger 4y ago
  > Do you oppose all employer regulations then? Yes. > What do you think should happen if two consenting adults, one of which is desperate for food, agree to an arrangement where one is paid 3 dollars per hour in exchange for work? I think this should be legal, for if it were illegal, then someone would be getting paid $0/hour (which is less than $3/hour) for no work being done at all. To cut to the chase: you should just ask me what should happen if someone has exhausted all avenues for sustenance, and failed. Then what should they do? Should they starve? My answer is: no, it would be morally justified for them to steal resources (i.e. food) from other non-consenting adults in order for them not to die under extreme circumstances like this. But notice that we'd still deem it as "justified theft" (where the theft is still intrinsically wrong, but justified under the extreme circumstances). Fortunately, "extreme circumstances" are not the conditions we're living under in developed Western countries, where even the poorest people live fabulously wealthy in comparison to almost everyone in human history. In particular, there doesn't seem to be any need to mandate (under literal threat of kidnap & imprisonment) that people not work more than 9 months per year. That sounds totally insane, especially since no one is forcing anyone to work 12 months per year anyway.
  - Buttons840 4y ago
    I see where you're coming from. I proposed it as an idea, and specifically an alternative idea to forever raising minimum wage over the decades. In that regard your counter argument of "eliminate minimum wage and all regulations" is outside the realm I was arguing in.

notahacker 4y ago

I didn't downvote, but something which is spectacularly disruptive to companies and means low paid workers don't get any more money unless they find someone that wants to hire them for only 3 months at a time seems like a complete non-starter.

Buttons840 4y ago
That's fair. Also some people might not want two jobs.
layer8 4y ago
The companies employing them for their primary job might be interested, in order to fill their 3-month vacancy…

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

> I think an alternative to raising minimum wage is to require all companies to offer a lot of paid vacation, like 3 or 4 months of paid vacation every year. > If people need more money, they can use their paid vacation time to work a second job. They'd be working the same 40-hours a week, but would receive double pay, thus increasing their income. I’m sorry to jump out at your comment with this but where do you think companies take the money to pay salaries from? Because they don’t print it. This trend of “we want money and don’t want to work” was magnified during covid and now it spirals out to a completely grotesque level. If people think it’s so easy to find paying customers to pay for “no work”, why don’t they all just go solo? No, instead everyone wants to have safety of not having to think where to get paying work from but also get paid for not having to do much. Eat a cookie and have a cookie.

Buttons840 4y ago
That's why I propose it as an alternative to raising minimum wage. Iff we're going to force employers to give more, I'd rather see it done through more paid vacation.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  If you're going to force employers to give more, a lot of them will just close shop and you'll end up with massive unemployment. You can propose all you want, but if you want it to have the desired effect, you actually need to think through it and consult experts.
  - buck4roo 4y ago
    > If you're going to force employers to give more, a lot of them will just close shop and you'll end up with massive unemployment. Strawman argument. See: countries that already have said 30+days of paid vacation -- without "massive unemployment" (read: France, Germany). > You can propose all you want, but if you want it to have the desired effect, you actually need to think through it I'd say the GP has done this and explained it well... but you have avoided its main proposals. > and consult experts. Of which, you are definitely not one (read: an expert).