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I've been looking a bit at solar systems, and it seems common in the US for half the price of the install to be labor. So $20K of labor on a $40K system. That

I've been looking a bit at solar systems, and it seems common in the US for half the price of the install to be labor. So $20K of labor on a $40K system. That seems awfully excessive for the tasks of installing rails on the roof, clipping panels into it, and the electrical work (though copper is insanely expensive right now, a panel upgrade is around $4500, so the electrical work can add up). Am I way out of line here, or are the labor prices reasonable?

wffurr 4y ago
The rent is too damn high. It pushes up the cost of labor across the board.
bowmessage 4y ago
Have you tried any of these tasks yourself?
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Edit: IIUC, it's usually a 2-5 person job. And it rarely takes more than a day. IIUC, the actual laborers aren't making anywhere near ~$20k per day (even for 5 people). Overhead on labor should not be 2000%+. If laborers were capturing all of the "labor" cost - they'd be making $1M per year working 5 days per week. Obviously, they wouldn't be 100% booked. But they're probably not even averaging $100k - since electricians make less than that in most parts of the country, and most of the workers are making a lot less than the electrician. The actual "labor" cost here - even counting for vacation and other benefits - is probably less than $5k. What's the other $15k? It's certainly NOT profit. These companies don't have high margins. It's also not materials - that's broken out into the materials costs which includes the more expensive regulated grid-tie inverters and whatnot. Whatever it is - it appears to be unique to the US.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    Eh... installing panels solo can be done, but especially on a roof, shouldn't be done. It's far, far easier with two people, even for ground mount systems. Three is some benefit over two, beyond that people are just standing around unless you're able to install multiple strings at once.
    - bootloop 4y ago
      But some roofs are flat. Edit: Ok as mentioned maybe still not a solo job but for sure much less dangerous.
      - rascul 4y ago
        But you still have to get the panels up to the roof. That's basically a two person job at the minimum to do it safely.
  - _JamesA_ 4y ago
    My 48 panel installation had 5 guys on the roof and 2 electricians.
    - bitexploder 4y ago
      Similar with my install. Also consider the big tax benefit. Everyone pushes their prices up marketing the tax rebate. Plus we had issues and our whole inverter and battery system was replaced under warranty.
    - zo1 4y ago
      10 panels and was done by 5 guys, two of which were electricians. Total labor was $1.3k and they did an awesome job. Then again, this is in South Africa!
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        Considering GDP per capita is ~12.6 times higher in the US - that's probably equivalent to ~$16k in US labor costs (80%).
  - jacobsenscott 4y ago
    You are missing cost of materials, insurance, licensing, back office staff, marketing, cushion for slow months, opportunity cost, maybe franchise fees, training, etc. Basically all the costs of running a business. You don't just throw a few laborers on a roof and call it a day. I don't know the actual overhead on a solar install, but if a contractors markup too large they'll lose out to the competition fairly quickly.
- linsomniac 4y ago
  Not those exact tasks, but I've upgraded roof venting and the associated shingle repair/tar work, which I assume is similar to what you'd be doing for the panel mounting rail installs, and I've run $500+ worth of 12-2 Romex to replace old aluminum runs, and do electrical upgrades to get some down-to-studs remodel work up to current standards.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    And how much would you charge to do that day after day? If I were quoting a price, I would also include the cost of long term disability insurance premiums due to the hazardous nature of the work.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      You can hand wring about safety and disability all you want but the fact of the mater is that roofing has all of the same risks and none of the sky high prices so clearly it's not the "schlepping around unwieldy crap on a roof" that's driving the cost.
bootloop 4y ago
Apart of the labor, I am in the EU and in the offer I have got, the mounting for one panel (some weak metal parts) is the same as the costs of the panel itself. I find this a bit crazy given that all these panels will have the same angle and are mounted in a row. So instead of individual ones I can just weld two long pieces in a fixed angle and screw them on. And get the double amount of panels for the same price...
- fest 4y ago
  It also depends on your roof material- if it's flat, couple of extrusions to support corners of the panels is less material than full length extrusions. When I shopped around for components, the prices did range from ~20-30EUR per panel to ~100EUR/panel.
Kim_Bruning 4y ago
That seems a bit expensive. Is that a very large system? Installing a (small) system to start with in the Netherlands costs down to an OOM less.
treis 4y ago
You're not just paying for the time they work. It's also stuff like paying for medical care if they fall off the roof or call backs on warranty work. Plus a lot of it is marketing and quoting expense. Advertising and paying for referrals eats up a big chunk of the bill. You (or someone) has to spend time generating quotes that turn into projects less than half the time.
- ericd 4y ago
  Yeah, like real estate agents, where a huge amount of the work is just trying to find new people to handle a house sale for, rather than any sort of productive work on selling houses, and the useful:useless work ratio gets worse as there are more agents out there. I’d much rather just pay an engineer $1,000 to whip up some plans, and then hire people to follow those plans, rather than pay indirectly for a bunch of failed sales calls. Which is what I’m ending up doing.
thedougd 4y ago
Residential solar installation in the US has become infested with scummy business practices. It's nearly on the level of traveling roofing companies. I don't think you're out of line. Get a couple of quotes and you'll see a huge spread for the same quality of components, installed.
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  Yeah, I looked into financing a solar installation. They offered a 25 year loan term, 0% interest, including the cost of a new roof. But... The installed cost of a 7kW system with no batteries was over $5.68/Watt NOT INCLUDING THE ROOF! So... financially the deal was actually objectively better than doing nothing because it increased monthly cash flow and required no money down. But, the solar company would be getting most of the savings from the system and would pass on about $50-80/month of those savings to me, but we'd be paying $200/month forever.
kurupt213 4y ago
That’s where the profit is budgeted
bergenty 4y ago
Labor prices in the US are silly high. I’m paying the plumber like $160/hr which is a joke in my opinion.
- gtowey 4y ago
  I would consider that well worth the price for not having to deal with human waste transport issues! And that's because I have actually done that work myself a few times. But yes, I know not all plumbing issues are waste related.
  - NegativeLatency 4y ago
    Been running new PEX supply lines to replace the leaking galvanized ones and it's been surprisingly easy.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      Everything is easy, until you do it wrong and flood your house causing $15k in damages.
- dymk 4y ago
  Serious question, what would be your hourly rate to do the work yourself?
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    That's a really hard question to answer. I'm getting towards the end of a to-studs bathroom remodel, and it's taking an amazing amount of time, probably 300 hours. But, if I hired it all out it could easily have been $25K to be done to a similar standard. I'll have around $5K in materials in when I'm done. But I also know that if I hired it all out, there are a number of things I've done that wouldn't have been done, for example I ran 500 feet of 12-2 romex to replace current several current 12-2 aluminum runs, switched our bedrooms over to AFCI, ran several spare 12-2 runs for future renovation, removed a totally not to code wiring situation that was a fire waiting to happen... And on top of it, I gain experience and get to know my house inside out... But on the other hand, I haven't had a spare weekend for 6 months. So how do you value that on a per hour basis?
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Am I way out of line here, or are the labor prices reasonable? Are there more than a handful of independent sellers to choose from? If there are, and you are not willing to do the work yourself, then I would say the prices are reasonable.
cactus2093 4y ago
Why are you grouping everything electrical under labor costs, if it includes things like expensive copper wiring and a $4500 electric panel?
- linsomniac 4y ago
  I wasn't, I'm including panel and wiring under materials cost, but some component of the $4500 panel replacement will be labor. Panels cost around $250, but then you need to upgrade the meter base, add an external disconnect (now code), upgrade ~5ft of aluminum from meter base to panel) and then swing over and reconnect all the circuits (high labor). There's also a city component for service upgrade. Then there's the components related to the solar grid tie. I understand that how I initially phrased it sounded like maybe I was bundling that into labor.

wffurr 4y ago

The rent is too damn high. It pushes up the cost of labor across the board.

bowmessage 4y ago

Have you tried any of these tasks yourself?

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Edit: IIUC, it's usually a 2-5 person job. And it rarely takes more than a day. IIUC, the actual laborers aren't making anywhere near ~$20k per day (even for 5 people). Overhead on labor should not be 2000%+. If laborers were capturing all of the "labor" cost - they'd be making $1M per year working 5 days per week. Obviously, they wouldn't be 100% booked. But they're probably not even averaging $100k - since electricians make less than that in most parts of the country, and most of the workers are making a lot less than the electrician. The actual "labor" cost here - even counting for vacation and other benefits - is probably less than $5k. What's the other $15k? It's certainly NOT profit. These companies don't have high margins. It's also not materials - that's broken out into the materials costs which includes the more expensive regulated grid-tie inverters and whatnot. Whatever it is - it appears to be unique to the US.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  Eh... installing panels solo can be done, but especially on a roof, shouldn't be done. It's far, far easier with two people, even for ground mount systems. Three is some benefit over two, beyond that people are just standing around unless you're able to install multiple strings at once.
  - bootloop 4y ago
    But some roofs are flat. Edit: Ok as mentioned maybe still not a solo job but for sure much less dangerous.
    - rascul 4y ago
      But you still have to get the panels up to the roof. That's basically a two person job at the minimum to do it safely.
- _JamesA_ 4y ago
  My 48 panel installation had 5 guys on the roof and 2 electricians.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    Similar with my install. Also consider the big tax benefit. Everyone pushes their prices up marketing the tax rebate. Plus we had issues and our whole inverter and battery system was replaced under warranty.
  - zo1 4y ago
    10 panels and was done by 5 guys, two of which were electricians. Total labor was $1.3k and they did an awesome job. Then again, this is in South Africa!
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      Considering GDP per capita is ~12.6 times higher in the US - that's probably equivalent to ~$16k in US labor costs (80%).
- jacobsenscott 4y ago
  You are missing cost of materials, insurance, licensing, back office staff, marketing, cushion for slow months, opportunity cost, maybe franchise fees, training, etc. Basically all the costs of running a business. You don't just throw a few laborers on a roof and call it a day. I don't know the actual overhead on a solar install, but if a contractors markup too large they'll lose out to the competition fairly quickly.
linsomniac 4y ago
Not those exact tasks, but I've upgraded roof venting and the associated shingle repair/tar work, which I assume is similar to what you'd be doing for the panel mounting rail installs, and I've run $500+ worth of 12-2 Romex to replace old aluminum runs, and do electrical upgrades to get some down-to-studs remodel work up to current standards.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  And how much would you charge to do that day after day? If I were quoting a price, I would also include the cost of long term disability insurance premiums due to the hazardous nature of the work.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    You can hand wring about safety and disability all you want but the fact of the mater is that roofing has all of the same risks and none of the sky high prices so clearly it's not the "schlepping around unwieldy crap on a roof" that's driving the cost.

bootloop 4y ago

Apart of the labor, I am in the EU and in the offer I have got, the mounting for one panel (some weak metal parts) is the same as the costs of the panel itself. I find this a bit crazy given that all these panels will have the same angle and are mounted in a row. So instead of individual ones I can just weld two long pieces in a fixed angle and screw them on. And get the double amount of panels for the same price...

fest 4y ago
It also depends on your roof material- if it's flat, couple of extrusions to support corners of the panels is less material than full length extrusions. When I shopped around for components, the prices did range from ~20-30EUR per panel to ~100EUR/panel.

Kim_Bruning 4y ago

That seems a bit expensive. Is that a very large system? Installing a (small) system to start with in the Netherlands costs down to an OOM less.

treis 4y ago

You're not just paying for the time they work. It's also stuff like paying for medical care if they fall off the roof or call backs on warranty work. Plus a lot of it is marketing and quoting expense. Advertising and paying for referrals eats up a big chunk of the bill. You (or someone) has to spend time generating quotes that turn into projects less than half the time.

ericd 4y ago
Yeah, like real estate agents, where a huge amount of the work is just trying to find new people to handle a house sale for, rather than any sort of productive work on selling houses, and the useful:useless work ratio gets worse as there are more agents out there. I’d much rather just pay an engineer $1,000 to whip up some plans, and then hire people to follow those plans, rather than pay indirectly for a bunch of failed sales calls. Which is what I’m ending up doing.

thedougd 4y ago

Residential solar installation in the US has become infested with scummy business practices. It's nearly on the level of traveling roofing companies. I don't think you're out of line. Get a couple of quotes and you'll see a huge spread for the same quality of components, installed.

Enginerrrd 4y ago
Yeah, I looked into financing a solar installation. They offered a 25 year loan term, 0% interest, including the cost of a new roof. But... The installed cost of a 7kW system with no batteries was over $5.68/Watt NOT INCLUDING THE ROOF! So... financially the deal was actually objectively better than doing nothing because it increased monthly cash flow and required no money down. But, the solar company would be getting most of the savings from the system and would pass on about $50-80/month of those savings to me, but we'd be paying $200/month forever.

kurupt213 4y ago

That’s where the profit is budgeted

bergenty 4y ago

Labor prices in the US are silly high. I’m paying the plumber like $160/hr which is a joke in my opinion.

gtowey 4y ago
I would consider that well worth the price for not having to deal with human waste transport issues! And that's because I have actually done that work myself a few times. But yes, I know not all plumbing issues are waste related.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Been running new PEX supply lines to replace the leaking galvanized ones and it's been surprisingly easy.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    Everything is easy, until you do it wrong and flood your house causing $15k in damages.
dymk 4y ago
Serious question, what would be your hourly rate to do the work yourself?
- linsomniac 4y ago
  That's a really hard question to answer. I'm getting towards the end of a to-studs bathroom remodel, and it's taking an amazing amount of time, probably 300 hours. But, if I hired it all out it could easily have been $25K to be done to a similar standard. I'll have around $5K in materials in when I'm done. But I also know that if I hired it all out, there are a number of things I've done that wouldn't have been done, for example I ran 500 feet of 12-2 romex to replace current several current 12-2 aluminum runs, switched our bedrooms over to AFCI, ran several spare 12-2 runs for future renovation, removed a totally not to code wiring situation that was a fire waiting to happen... And on top of it, I gain experience and get to know my house inside out... But on the other hand, I haven't had a spare weekend for 6 months. So how do you value that on a per hour basis?

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> Am I way out of line here, or are the labor prices reasonable? Are there more than a handful of independent sellers to choose from? If there are, and you are not willing to do the work yourself, then I would say the prices are reasonable.

cactus2093 4y ago

Why are you grouping everything electrical under labor costs, if it includes things like expensive copper wiring and a $4500 electric panel?

linsomniac 4y ago
I wasn't, I'm including panel and wiring under materials cost, but some component of the $4500 panel replacement will be labor. Panels cost around $250, but then you need to upgrade the meter base, add an external disconnect (now code), upgrade ~5ft of aluminum from meter base to panel) and then swing over and reconnect all the circuits (high labor). There's also a city component for service upgrade. Then there's the components related to the solar grid tie. I understand that how I initially phrased it sounded like maybe I was bundling that into labor.