5 ms·

> There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money.

by Syonyk 4y ago

> There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money. I really, really want to go see some "contractor installed" solar installs in my area, open up all the panels, see how it's done by the "pros." Because multiple inspectors have now commented on multiple homeowner installs I've been connected with about "how neat and clean this all is compared to the usual contractor stuff." I assume they're not just buttering up homeowners for no reason (they certainly find things to correct when they're not perfect out of the gate), but... what I consider fairly standard, tidy electrical work gets comments from inspectors. So I have to wonder what sort of crap they're seeing elsewhere.

hattmall 4y ago
The first rule of contracting is always do shitty work. Only fix it if the lead or inspector requires it. Eventually when you're really skilled you can do exactly the right amount of shitty work that doesn't get called out. Contractors that go out with the ambition of doing great quality work don't last long in most markets. The biggest force on this is that the lead is going to find something wrong with great work only almost as frequently as they will shitty work. So do the bare minimum on the first run.
- rascul 4y ago
  I must not be a good contractor. I try to only do good work and I turn down jobs if I can't do it correctly for the time and money the client desires. But I also have steady work so I can afford to be picky.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Most good contractors have steady work, because they are known to be good. They turn down many jobs that are either too small or have too small a budget. The contractors who are available are either new and unproven, or the bad ones. It's like software development. Good developers are well paid and work on large, interesting projects. Bad developers are doing piecework small jobs for lower pay.
    - rascul 4y ago
      A decent portion of my work is fixing what those bad contractors do. It can be frustrating sometimes.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    careful, you're on HN - the narrative is that people who actually build things with their hands are lazy borderline criminals and out to steal as much as they can from the noble, erudite developers who could do just as good a job anyway, no, better! if they wanted to.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
> So I have to wonder what sort of crap they're seeing elsewhere Professionals who know the code to the letter will happily build a rats nest that meets the code to the letter and rightfully tell the inspector to F-off if they get uppity. Homeowners try to make their stuff look nice because they are dependent on the inspectors good graces because they do not have the requisite knowledge to argue with them so they try to stack the deck in their favor by making the inspector's job easy. (And they know the next person dealing with the panel will probably be them so they have another incentive to make it clean).
- Syonyk 4y ago
  Yeah... that's about my logic. I know the person who's going to have to fight with it later, for sure. I'm just wondering how bad a typical solar install is, that what I consider "sane and reasonable wiring I can visually trace without heroics" is worth mentioning specifically.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    >I'm just wondering how bad a typical solar install is, that what I consider "sane and reasonable wiring I can visually trace without heroics" is worth mentioning specifically. Any neanderthal who's had the code beat into them can do the wiring just fine. I would be far more worried about "professionals" drilling holes in dumb shit to save 5min or mounting components in dumb places for convenience than I would be about them doing a bad job at connecting it all together with copper.
  - rascul 4y ago
    I have no experience with solar installs but I wouldn't be surprised if crappy rooftop installs lead to leaks roofs. Happens all the time with satellite dishes.
    - Syonyk 4y ago
      This is one of many, many reasons I encourage people who have the land to do so, to do ground mounts. Zero chance of roof leaks that way, and the cost, even with the ground mounts, can actually end up being lower if you don't have a lot of shade. NEC 2017 requires per-panel electronics for shutdown on the roof, and there's no such requirement for ground mounts - so I just have 12 panel series strings going to a string inverter. There's no shade microinverters would help with (my two arrays shade each other a bit in the morning and evening).
Forgeties79 4y ago
A fully licensed general contractor moved our compressors to the second-story of our house on a beautiful painted small deck to open up our yard/reduce the noise. Quality, sturdy work. Rated for 3000lbs, got it in writing! 3mo later the “quality and sturdy” deck collapsed 5-10min after my infant daughter and her grandmother (my MIL) were playing outside under it. The units were dangling from the side of our house. I looked at the collapsed deck: only nails. Let me repeat that, it was only secured with nails. Just dozens of them all over the place. Never underestimate who will cut corners and how they’ll do it. I’ll never understand how he allowed this to happen. It was utterly baffling.
- reportingsjr 4y ago
  There's a lot of details missing from your post, but it's basically a requirement for many of the structural connections (joists/joists hangers) on a deck to be done with nails. Screws are typically very brittle and will snap under high wind loads that decks experience, unless you buy special ($$$) screws. Nails are malleable and will allow more flexing and bending before failing. There are other structural connections though, and depending on how they are built nails can be perfectly acceptable, bolts may be the right choice, or screws may be. This depends on a lot of factors.
  - Forgeties79 4y ago
    This was literally an array of far-too-small-nails that were driven straight into the siding (it ripped several boards out). It’s a miracle it stayed up as long as it did. The fact that it barely lasted three months should tell you how unsuitable the build was, frankly I don’t think you need more detail than that. Not sure why you’re skeptical of my story. The fact that it fell so fast means it was clearly not appropriately secured.
    - quesera 4y ago
      Also FWIW, "joist hanger nails" are a special kind of nail that is much shorter than most people might expect. Joist hanger nails (lots of them, typically 10 required per 2x6 hanger) are the correct way to attach a porch to a house. There is usually a ledger board that is lag screwed or bolted to the house frame, and then joists (nailed in hangers) are extended out to a beam supported by posts. A collapsed porch is a big deal, clearly. I don't think there's any skepticism of your story, just the ordinary "OK, but" that we often do because it wasn't clear whether you had correctly identified the construction error that caused the failure. Not your job of course -- hopefully the contractor has remedied their bad work. Also glad everyone is OK!

by Syonyk 4y ago

hattmall 4y ago

The first rule of contracting is always do shitty work. Only fix it if the lead or inspector requires it. Eventually when you're really skilled you can do exactly the right amount of shitty work that doesn't get called out. Contractors that go out with the ambition of doing great quality work don't last long in most markets. The biggest force on this is that the lead is going to find something wrong with great work only almost as frequently as they will shitty work. So do the bare minimum on the first run.

rascul 4y ago
I must not be a good contractor. I try to only do good work and I turn down jobs if I can't do it correctly for the time and money the client desires. But I also have steady work so I can afford to be picky.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Most good contractors have steady work, because they are known to be good. They turn down many jobs that are either too small or have too small a budget. The contractors who are available are either new and unproven, or the bad ones. It's like software development. Good developers are well paid and work on large, interesting projects. Bad developers are doing piecework small jobs for lower pay.
  - rascul 4y ago
    A decent portion of my work is fixing what those bad contractors do. It can be frustrating sometimes.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  careful, you're on HN - the narrative is that people who actually build things with their hands are lazy borderline criminals and out to steal as much as they can from the noble, erudite developers who could do just as good a job anyway, no, better! if they wanted to.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

> So I have to wonder what sort of crap they're seeing elsewhere Professionals who know the code to the letter will happily build a rats nest that meets the code to the letter and rightfully tell the inspector to F-off if they get uppity. Homeowners try to make their stuff look nice because they are dependent on the inspectors good graces because they do not have the requisite knowledge to argue with them so they try to stack the deck in their favor by making the inspector's job easy. (And they know the next person dealing with the panel will probably be them so they have another incentive to make it clean).

Syonyk 4y ago
Yeah... that's about my logic. I know the person who's going to have to fight with it later, for sure. I'm just wondering how bad a typical solar install is, that what I consider "sane and reasonable wiring I can visually trace without heroics" is worth mentioning specifically.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >I'm just wondering how bad a typical solar install is, that what I consider "sane and reasonable wiring I can visually trace without heroics" is worth mentioning specifically. Any neanderthal who's had the code beat into them can do the wiring just fine. I would be far more worried about "professionals" drilling holes in dumb shit to save 5min or mounting components in dumb places for convenience than I would be about them doing a bad job at connecting it all together with copper.
- rascul 4y ago
  I have no experience with solar installs but I wouldn't be surprised if crappy rooftop installs lead to leaks roofs. Happens all the time with satellite dishes.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    This is one of many, many reasons I encourage people who have the land to do so, to do ground mounts. Zero chance of roof leaks that way, and the cost, even with the ground mounts, can actually end up being lower if you don't have a lot of shade. NEC 2017 requires per-panel electronics for shutdown on the roof, and there's no such requirement for ground mounts - so I just have 12 panel series strings going to a string inverter. There's no shade microinverters would help with (my two arrays shade each other a bit in the morning and evening).

Forgeties79 4y ago

A fully licensed general contractor moved our compressors to the second-story of our house on a beautiful painted small deck to open up our yard/reduce the noise. Quality, sturdy work. Rated for 3000lbs, got it in writing! 3mo later the “quality and sturdy” deck collapsed 5-10min after my infant daughter and her grandmother (my MIL) were playing outside under it. The units were dangling from the side of our house. I looked at the collapsed deck: only nails. Let me repeat that, it was only secured with nails. Just dozens of them all over the place. Never underestimate who will cut corners and how they’ll do it. I’ll never understand how he allowed this to happen. It was utterly baffling.

reportingsjr 4y ago
There's a lot of details missing from your post, but it's basically a requirement for many of the structural connections (joists/joists hangers) on a deck to be done with nails. Screws are typically very brittle and will snap under high wind loads that decks experience, unless you buy special ($$$) screws. Nails are malleable and will allow more flexing and bending before failing. There are other structural connections though, and depending on how they are built nails can be perfectly acceptable, bolts may be the right choice, or screws may be. This depends on a lot of factors.
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  This was literally an array of far-too-small-nails that were driven straight into the siding (it ripped several boards out). It’s a miracle it stayed up as long as it did. The fact that it barely lasted three months should tell you how unsuitable the build was, frankly I don’t think you need more detail than that. Not sure why you’re skeptical of my story. The fact that it fell so fast means it was clearly not appropriately secured.
  - quesera 4y ago
    Also FWIW, "joist hanger nails" are a special kind of nail that is much shorter than most people might expect. Joist hanger nails (lots of them, typically 10 required per 2x6 hanger) are the correct way to attach a porch to a house. There is usually a ledger board that is lag screwed or bolted to the house frame, and then joists (nailed in hangers) are extended out to a beam supported by posts. A collapsed porch is a big deal, clearly. I don't think there's any skepticism of your story, just the ordinary "OK, but" that we often do because it wasn't clear whether you had correctly identified the construction error that caused the failure. Not your job of course -- hopefully the contractor has remedied their bad work. Also glad everyone is OK!