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The Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG) is responsible for publishing all the Bluetooth specs and you can download them here: https://www.bluetooth.com/speci

The Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG) is responsible for publishing all the Bluetooth specs and you can download them here: https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/specs/ https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/specs/ Notice that everything appears to be there: very detailed specs and information about testing. However, when you try to implement one of these specs you quickly realize that you cannot do it with the spec alone. You need example code, base implementations, test suite software and test data to build conformant software. Unfortunately, the Bluetooth SIG hides these resources behind a membership wall. Guess what happens then? You get lots of implementations of these specs that are a little bit off and don't handle all edge cases. If I were to wave a magic wand I would like to see Bluetooth SIG change to a donation based financial model and for them to make all resources freely available. Right now they make money from branding, certification and country club membership fees. No wonder the ecosystem is one big tire fire.

natch 4y ago
So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh), but I would be skeptical of any implication that Apple doesn't pay a membership fee.
- wvenable 4y ago
  Are you sure the problem is Apple and not the device on the other side?
  - natch 4y ago
    Both sides are Apple, fully updated, expert user, in close proximity, good charge, blah blah blah. Maybe it’s me… or… just maybe… Bluetooth does have room for improvement.
    - ricardobeat 4y ago
      In my experience the W1-equipped headphones all work flawlessly, pairing is instant. The only thing that is still annoying is the difficulty of managing multiple devices & headphones, when the built-in 'right thing to do' (like connecting to the last used device) can conflict with your real intent.
- xlii 4y ago
  AFAIK it's not about Apple, but about other producers either polluting spectrum or plainly ignoring specs. There was a post about Logitech not creating a lot of interference with their MX products (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31939424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31939424). Interestingly enough getting rid of Logitech devices fixed most of the BT issues I had.
  - natch 4y ago
    That’s a good point and something I could look into (very) locally in my setup. Not many non-Apple devices around except a couple of cars and one mouse but yeah they could be causing problems.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    I have constant issues the single bluetooth device in myhouse - my Bose bluetooth QC-35s, and a google produced phone and google produced laptop which it connects to. Both of those groups should be able to get bluetooth right.
    - solardev 4y ago
      I can't even get my Airpods to work consistently with my iPad, or Pixel Buds to work consistently with my Pixel phone. And it gets exponentially worse if you try to connect to more than one device at a time, across vendors or even chipsets. Bluetooth is a hopeless mess.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties? My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.
  - JLCarveth 4y ago
    Honestly my linux desktop (Ubuntu 22.04) is where I run into the fewest issues regarding my bluetooth headphones. I've never had an issue connecting to them.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Hmm. The issues that come to mind are annoying pairing (Arch -- probably my fault, too manual) and some weird random disconnects on Ubuntu, but that might be some power-saving issue specific to my chip. So maybe I just got unlucky random outcomes.
    - ikeboy 4y ago
      I've had issues where every other time I connect my Sony XM5 to Ubuntu 22.04, it decides to use HFP instead of A2DP which has significantly worse audio quality for music. I need to reset Bluetooth to fix it. None of the solutions online for disabling this "helpful" feature work.
      - solardev 4y ago
        Heh, that was the same issue that made me give up on desktop Linux (though with the XM3) and go back to Windows/Mac... three years ago. It's just never going to get priority because it doesn't have the marketshare. Sony doesn't care about Linux and Canonical doesn't care about Sony. If I were you, I'd consider an external bluetooth adapter that supports A2DP and connects to the 3.5mm plug on your computer, like this one: https://aluratek.com/universal-bluetooth-optical-audio-receiver-and-transmitter-with-bluetooth-five https://aluratek.com/universal-bluetooth-optical-audio-recei... Look for AptX low-latency support too if you care about audio lag (for movies or games).
- antomeie 4y ago
  SIG did not do an excellent job with the tech, that's for sure, but his point is still valid, that poor implementations of it causes further issues. Also, SIG is quite slow with new features, so companies start adding their own stuff on top of it. With Apple, things like sharing BT pairings over iCloud comes to mind, which is kind of a weird hack. They also do some non-standard switching between LE and Classic on the go.
systemvoltage 4y ago
Same with USB consortium. Gotta pay like $10k to get a USB vendor ID. What the fuck were these people thinking to rally up behind this draconian standard? There is a limit to how many vendors they can have, iirc 10k. But for all the issues with it, usb seems to work on devices without Bluetooth-like issues. Standards should be open and free for common public and only have to pay once you reach certain company size. Things like ISO standards aren’t free.
- blibble 4y ago
  vendor id is 16-bit so should be enough for 65535 of them
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    Yea a bunch of these are reserved. I remember jumping through the whole process when we were designing a usb device. To counter my own point, it takes money and people to run a standards committee and it is important to keep in mind that funding has to come from somewhere. Here are more details of what it takes to run one: https://stackoverflow.com/a/22968431/3908009 https://stackoverflow.com/a/22968431/3908009 IMO they should either be funded by gov or by large companies.
    - blibble 4y ago
      yes, $4k/year doesn't seem that bad for a company that's going to be producing a commercial product (and of course if you're just hacking locally you can do whatever you want as it's an open standard)
  - lupire 4y ago
    Can you sublet a vendor id, like a taxi medallion?
  - madacol 4y ago
    Maybe in next versions they should choose 256 bits (or 160, like bitcoin) which would be the hash of a public key, an any vendor that provides a valid signature, can claim that 160 bit vendor ID. No more need for a central authority I'm probably overengineering it, just pointing out it is technically possible

natch 4y ago

So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh), but I would be skeptical of any implication that Apple doesn't pay a membership fee.

wvenable 4y ago
Are you sure the problem is Apple and not the device on the other side?
- natch 4y ago
  Both sides are Apple, fully updated, expert user, in close proximity, good charge, blah blah blah. Maybe it’s me… or… just maybe… Bluetooth does have room for improvement.
  - ricardobeat 4y ago
    In my experience the W1-equipped headphones all work flawlessly, pairing is instant. The only thing that is still annoying is the difficulty of managing multiple devices & headphones, when the built-in 'right thing to do' (like connecting to the last used device) can conflict with your real intent.
xlii 4y ago
AFAIK it's not about Apple, but about other producers either polluting spectrum or plainly ignoring specs. There was a post about Logitech not creating a lot of interference with their MX products (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31939424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31939424). Interestingly enough getting rid of Logitech devices fixed most of the BT issues I had.
- natch 4y ago
  That’s a good point and something I could look into (very) locally in my setup. Not many non-Apple devices around except a couple of cars and one mouse but yeah they could be causing problems.
- googlryas 4y ago
  I have constant issues the single bluetooth device in myhouse - my Bose bluetooth QC-35s, and a google produced phone and google produced laptop which it connects to. Both of those groups should be able to get bluetooth right.
  - solardev 4y ago
    I can't even get my Airpods to work consistently with my iPad, or Pixel Buds to work consistently with my Pixel phone. And it gets exponentially worse if you try to connect to more than one device at a time, across vendors or even chipsets. Bluetooth is a hopeless mess.
bee_rider 4y ago
Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties? My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.
- JLCarveth 4y ago
  Honestly my linux desktop (Ubuntu 22.04) is where I run into the fewest issues regarding my bluetooth headphones. I've never had an issue connecting to them.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Hmm. The issues that come to mind are annoying pairing (Arch -- probably my fault, too manual) and some weird random disconnects on Ubuntu, but that might be some power-saving issue specific to my chip. So maybe I just got unlucky random outcomes.
  - ikeboy 4y ago
    I've had issues where every other time I connect my Sony XM5 to Ubuntu 22.04, it decides to use HFP instead of A2DP which has significantly worse audio quality for music. I need to reset Bluetooth to fix it. None of the solutions online for disabling this "helpful" feature work.
    - solardev 4y ago
      Heh, that was the same issue that made me give up on desktop Linux (though with the XM3) and go back to Windows/Mac... three years ago. It's just never going to get priority because it doesn't have the marketshare. Sony doesn't care about Linux and Canonical doesn't care about Sony. If I were you, I'd consider an external bluetooth adapter that supports A2DP and connects to the 3.5mm plug on your computer, like this one: https://aluratek.com/universal-bluetooth-optical-audio-receiver-and-transmitter-with-bluetooth-five https://aluratek.com/universal-bluetooth-optical-audio-recei... Look for AptX low-latency support too if you care about audio lag (for movies or games).
antomeie 4y ago
SIG did not do an excellent job with the tech, that's for sure, but his point is still valid, that poor implementations of it causes further issues. Also, SIG is quite slow with new features, so companies start adding their own stuff on top of it. With Apple, things like sharing BT pairings over iCloud comes to mind, which is kind of a weird hack. They also do some non-standard switching between LE and Classic on the go.

systemvoltage 4y ago

Same with USB consortium. Gotta pay like $10k to get a USB vendor ID. What the fuck were these people thinking to rally up behind this draconian standard? There is a limit to how many vendors they can have, iirc 10k. But for all the issues with it, usb seems to work on devices without Bluetooth-like issues. Standards should be open and free for common public and only have to pay once you reach certain company size. Things like ISO standards aren’t free.

blibble 4y ago
vendor id is 16-bit so should be enough for 65535 of them
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Yea a bunch of these are reserved. I remember jumping through the whole process when we were designing a usb device. To counter my own point, it takes money and people to run a standards committee and it is important to keep in mind that funding has to come from somewhere. Here are more details of what it takes to run one: https://stackoverflow.com/a/22968431/3908009 https://stackoverflow.com/a/22968431/3908009 IMO they should either be funded by gov or by large companies.
  - blibble 4y ago
    yes, $4k/year doesn't seem that bad for a company that's going to be producing a commercial product (and of course if you're just hacking locally you can do whatever you want as it's an open standard)
- lupire 4y ago
  Can you sublet a vendor id, like a taxi medallion?
- madacol 4y ago
  Maybe in next versions they should choose 256 bits (or 160, like bitcoin) which would be the hash of a public key, an any vendor that provides a valid signature, can claim that 160 bit vendor ID. No more need for a central authority I'm probably overengineering it, just pointing out it is technically possible