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Inspectors don't have infinite expertise, and I've found that they're not really any better at catching or avoiding trades errors than the practitioner. Given

Inspectors don't have infinite expertise, and I've found that they're not really any better at catching or avoiding trades errors than the practitioner. Given the high level of maturity that quality products have achieved and the significant degree of self-protection and fault-isolation that have been built in, I'm inclined to let any random person install with zero oversight and let them deal with any problems that arise. Probably the only thing really worth doing is ensuring that products available in a marketplace actually implement requisite user-safety, grid-safety, and self-protection mechanisms. It's too easy in most places to get shady garbage equipment.

idiotsecant 4y ago
>Inspectors don't have infinite expertise, and I've found that they're not really any better at catching or avoiding trades errors than the practitioner. I think you're missing the whole point of inspectors. They aren't primarily there to be experts for the well-intentioned contractors to use to catch honest oversights they made (although they can do that too sometimes). They're there to catch the less scrupulous people who take advantage of an ignorant homeowner by making the job seem to be done well but in fact actually doing it dangerously and/or poorly. There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money.
- Jensson 4y ago
  How do you know those mandatory inspections doesn't come from oil lobbyists trying to make solar more expensive than it has to be? You can always frame bad regulations to look reasonable.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Because the same exact inspector shows up to inspect the electrical installation powered by oil?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      My house was already inspected for the electrical installation currently powered by [mostly natural gas]. It would need additional inspections if I wanted to add grid-tie solar.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        My house’s electrical was already inspected too. It still needed inspected again when I had maintenance done on the system. The inspection is because electrical systems can burn houses down if they’re not installed correctly. It has nothing to do with the source of the energy at the other end of the wire.
      - toast0 4y ago
        Sure, but if your house already had grid-tie solar and you wanted to add a natural gas generator, you'd need the same kind of inspections.
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Which happens to be substantially the reason I don't have a natural gas standby generator (in this case, the gatekeeping/protectionism of electricians by my state, as enforced at the end by the permitting process).
    - Jensson 4y ago
      Oil generators are much more dangerous than solar generators though due to monoxide and the extra fire risk from having tanks of gasoline sitting in your home, forcing the same level of inspection for both greatly favors oil. For solar all that should be required is a quick check that the box connecting it to the grid is there, the rest is just regular electrical wiring which typically doesn't need inspection if it is done by a licenced electrician. Or, apparently USA requires inspection of all electrical installations. But where I live they don't do that you just need a licensed electrician during the installation, and I looked it up and home fires due to electricity are just as common in USA as here (about 1 electricity caused home fire per year per 7k people) so it seems like those inspections are worthless for preventing accidents. Does USA has some way to evaluate whether all these regulations really are necessary and cut down on them over time? There seems to be so many strange regulations that fills no purpose there.
  - scythe 4y ago
    >You can always frame bad regulations to look reasonable. You can also frame good regulations to look unreasonable. Ultimately, you can't solve real-world problems by sitting in a chair and not doing any kind of observation. In this case, we know because there are actually problems with existing solar installations that we can point to. In the hypothetical you refer to, we could find out when news media interview an inspector who says "yeah we just rubber stamp everything, it's a scam" in nicer language.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Your tinfoil is leaking.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money. I really, really want to go see some "contractor installed" solar installs in my area, open up all the panels, see how it's done by the "pros." Because multiple inspectors have now commented on multiple homeowner installs I've been connected with about "how neat and clean this all is compared to the usual contractor stuff." I assume they're not just buttering up homeowners for no reason (they certainly find things to correct when they're not perfect out of the gate), but... what I consider fairly standard, tidy electrical work gets comments from inspectors. So I have to wonder what sort of crap they're seeing elsewhere.
  - hattmall 4y ago
    The first rule of contracting is always do shitty work. Only fix it if the lead or inspector requires it. Eventually when you're really skilled you can do exactly the right amount of shitty work that doesn't get called out. Contractors that go out with the ambition of doing great quality work don't last long in most markets. The biggest force on this is that the lead is going to find something wrong with great work only almost as frequently as they will shitty work. So do the bare minimum on the first run.
    - rascul 4y ago
      I must not be a good contractor. I try to only do good work and I turn down jobs if I can't do it correctly for the time and money the client desires. But I also have steady work so I can afford to be picky.
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        Most good contractors have steady work, because they are known to be good. They turn down many jobs that are either too small or have too small a budget. The contractors who are available are either new and unproven, or the bad ones. It's like software development. Good developers are well paid and work on large, interesting projects. Bad developers are doing piecework small jobs for lower pay.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Eh, if that were really true, then they wouldn't inspect homeowner work. Their primary concern is that code was met. The municipality wants this because code is supposed to reduce the risk of destructive failures (fire, gas leak, flood, etc) that could affect the neighbors.
  - cma 4y ago
    And effect future renters, people at a house party, sleepover guests, etc. who aren't going to inspect the gas line themselves.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  None of ours climbed on the roof or looked in the attic. If there were major issues up there, they wouldn't have seen them.

idiotsecant 4y ago

>Inspectors don't have infinite expertise, and I've found that they're not really any better at catching or avoiding trades errors than the practitioner. I think you're missing the whole point of inspectors. They aren't primarily there to be experts for the well-intentioned contractors to use to catch honest oversights they made (although they can do that too sometimes). They're there to catch the less scrupulous people who take advantage of an ignorant homeowner by making the job seem to be done well but in fact actually doing it dangerously and/or poorly. There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money.

Jensson 4y ago
How do you know those mandatory inspections doesn't come from oil lobbyists trying to make solar more expensive than it has to be? You can always frame bad regulations to look reasonable.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Because the same exact inspector shows up to inspect the electrical installation powered by oil?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    My house was already inspected for the electrical installation currently powered by [mostly natural gas]. It would need additional inspections if I wanted to add grid-tie solar.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      My house’s electrical was already inspected too. It still needed inspected again when I had maintenance done on the system. The inspection is because electrical systems can burn houses down if they’re not installed correctly. It has nothing to do with the source of the energy at the other end of the wire.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Sure, but if your house already had grid-tie solar and you wanted to add a natural gas generator, you'd need the same kind of inspections.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Which happens to be substantially the reason I don't have a natural gas standby generator (in this case, the gatekeeping/protectionism of electricians by my state, as enforced at the end by the permitting process).
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Oil generators are much more dangerous than solar generators though due to monoxide and the extra fire risk from having tanks of gasoline sitting in your home, forcing the same level of inspection for both greatly favors oil. For solar all that should be required is a quick check that the box connecting it to the grid is there, the rest is just regular electrical wiring which typically doesn't need inspection if it is done by a licenced electrician. Or, apparently USA requires inspection of all electrical installations. But where I live they don't do that you just need a licensed electrician during the installation, and I looked it up and home fires due to electricity are just as common in USA as here (about 1 electricity caused home fire per year per 7k people) so it seems like those inspections are worthless for preventing accidents. Does USA has some way to evaluate whether all these regulations really are necessary and cut down on them over time? There seems to be so many strange regulations that fills no purpose there.
- scythe 4y ago
  >You can always frame bad regulations to look reasonable. You can also frame good regulations to look unreasonable. Ultimately, you can't solve real-world problems by sitting in a chair and not doing any kind of observation. In this case, we know because there are actually problems with existing solar installations that we can point to. In the hypothetical you refer to, we could find out when news media interview an inspector who says "yeah we just rubber stamp everything, it's a scam" in nicer language.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Your tinfoil is leaking.
Syonyk 4y ago
> There is a massive incentive to do this kind of work poorly, because it leads to being able to do it quickly and fitting in more jobs means making more money. I really, really want to go see some "contractor installed" solar installs in my area, open up all the panels, see how it's done by the "pros." Because multiple inspectors have now commented on multiple homeowner installs I've been connected with about "how neat and clean this all is compared to the usual contractor stuff." I assume they're not just buttering up homeowners for no reason (they certainly find things to correct when they're not perfect out of the gate), but... what I consider fairly standard, tidy electrical work gets comments from inspectors. So I have to wonder what sort of crap they're seeing elsewhere.
- hattmall 4y ago
  The first rule of contracting is always do shitty work. Only fix it if the lead or inspector requires it. Eventually when you're really skilled you can do exactly the right amount of shitty work that doesn't get called out. Contractors that go out with the ambition of doing great quality work don't last long in most markets. The biggest force on this is that the lead is going to find something wrong with great work only almost as frequently as they will shitty work. So do the bare minimum on the first run.
  - rascul 4y ago
    I must not be a good contractor. I try to only do good work and I turn down jobs if I can't do it correctly for the time and money the client desires. But I also have steady work so I can afford to be picky.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      Most good contractors have steady work, because they are known to be good. They turn down many jobs that are either too small or have too small a budget. The contractors who are available are either new and unproven, or the bad ones. It's like software development. Good developers are well paid and work on large, interesting projects. Bad developers are doing piecework small jobs for lower pay.
giantg2 4y ago
Eh, if that were really true, then they wouldn't inspect homeowner work. Their primary concern is that code was met. The municipality wants this because code is supposed to reduce the risk of destructive failures (fire, gas leak, flood, etc) that could affect the neighbors.
- cma 4y ago
  And effect future renters, people at a house party, sleepover guests, etc. who aren't going to inspect the gas line themselves.
_ea1k 4y ago
None of ours climbed on the roof or looked in the attic. If there were major issues up there, they wouldn't have seen them.