6 ms·

The presence of small amounts of lead in a niche motor fuel product in a country that doesn't have a corn industry to speak of in ethanol subsidy program is irr

The presence of small amounts of lead in a niche motor fuel product in a country that doesn't have a corn industry to speak of in ethanol subsidy program is irrelevant to the point of dishonest when the subject at hand is US corn subsidies. The only leaded fuel you can buy in the US is aviation fuel. You can't buy it at a gas station and the only reason it still exists with lead in it is because that is necessary for compliance with government rules that regulate what fuel can be sold for that specific purpose.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use leaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). You do get alkylate gasoline, maybe that's what is being sold: > The availability of alkylate petrol is limited. The actual alkylation process to produce Aspen is a much more advanced and expensive process which only a few refineries in the world can produce. Even if new ways of producing alkylate petrol is developed, regular petrol will still be the dominant type of motor fuel in the world. https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html I found this website, that lists places that sell ethanol free gas, and the number of them that appear to be Marinas, combined with the bit above about lead being used for marine purpsose makes me think they're just using lead.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use unleaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). Somebody call Congress! Think of the children! Pretty much nobody does this because on the high end race fuels as well as various alcohol fuels are more available and better supported by industry and on the low end ethanol free premium is substantially cheaper. If lots of people did it it wouldn't still be legal. Dumping 100LL into your boat or race car just isn't a good value way to solve a problem anyone has. > I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). I hope I'm not the only one appreciating the schadenfreude here. It reminds me of when people unscrew the spout from their crappy compliant cans. Regardless, the overwhelming majority of these people just drag their butt to whatever local station has ethanol free premium rather than go to the airport because it's a faster/easier/cheaper way of accomplishing the same goal. The current status quo is stupid but the rules are written by a bunch of jerks who either a) DGAF about what happens beyond the next election cycle or b) DGAF so long as they're not responsible and can collect their pension so it's no surprise that the things people do to compensate are non-optimal.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Replying to myself, looks like you can either live with lower octane ratings (like 87 which might work for some boats, when some modern cars want 95), or add more benzene, toluene, ethyl-benzene and xylene instead of ethanol, but it's more expensive. Apparently some of the ethanol free options like Rec90, are specifically marketed as Recreational, i.e. not for automobiles, as no real study has been done on their use for that purpose.
- shortstuffsushi 4y ago
  It's funny you linked to buyrealgas - I had been trying to avoid them since they seem a bit.. radically anti-ethanol ("first of all, we're literally burning our food!"). Anyway... never heard of using av gas in a lawn mower, that sounds crazy to me. Maybe I'm just hugely naive on small motor mechanics, but the difference between standard, 10% eth 87 and premium eth free 91 seems to be about 0, performance wise, and if you end up cleaning the engine once every year or two anyway... idk. I think I mentioned above, but my frame of reference is Wisconsin. Outside of Milwaukee/Waukesha county, most gas stations sell eth free premium, and many people here actually do make the trip to get it.
  - jandrese 4y ago
    The problem with ethanol in power equipment is that it tends to dissolve rubber seals/tubes. For some reason small engine manufacturers were extremely slow to switch to ethanol safe rubber and as a result one of the most common failure modes is for the carburetor jets to clog up with nasty semi-dissolved rubber. It's also just the case that people keep their old 80s and 90s lawn mowers running because they only put a couple dozen hours of runtime on the things each year so they don't tend to die except when the ethanol wrecks the fuel system.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      An additional issue for low use stuff is ethanol is hydroscopic and many of the other compounds are volatile. Even in a steel tank most modern fuel turns into pink slime after some months. Large tanks are generally okay, but if you try to start a small carbouretted engine after 6mo and haven't drained the tank you'll need to clean the jets and replace the spark plug.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use leaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). You do get alkylate gasoline, maybe that's what is being sold: > The availability of alkylate petrol is limited. The actual alkylation process to produce Aspen is a much more advanced and expensive process which only a few refineries in the world can produce. Even if new ways of producing alkylate petrol is developed, regular petrol will still be the dominant type of motor fuel in the world. https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html I found this website, that lists places that sell ethanol free gas, and the number of them that appear to be Marinas, combined with the bit above about lead being used for marine purpsose makes me think they're just using lead.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use unleaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). Somebody call Congress! Think of the children! Pretty much nobody does this because on the high end race fuels as well as various alcohol fuels are more available and better supported by industry and on the low end ethanol free premium is substantially cheaper. If lots of people did it it wouldn't still be legal. Dumping 100LL into your boat or race car just isn't a good value way to solve a problem anyone has. > I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). I hope I'm not the only one appreciating the schadenfreude here. It reminds me of when people unscrew the spout from their crappy compliant cans. Regardless, the overwhelming majority of these people just drag their butt to whatever local station has ethanol free premium rather than go to the airport because it's a faster/easier/cheaper way of accomplishing the same goal. The current status quo is stupid but the rules are written by a bunch of jerks who either a) DGAF about what happens beyond the next election cycle or b) DGAF so long as they're not responsible and can collect their pension so it's no surprise that the things people do to compensate are non-optimal.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Replying to myself, looks like you can either live with lower octane ratings (like 87 which might work for some boats, when some modern cars want 95), or add more benzene, toluene, ethyl-benzene and xylene instead of ethanol, but it's more expensive. Apparently some of the ethanol free options like Rec90, are specifically marketed as Recreational, i.e. not for automobiles, as no real study has been done on their use for that purpose.
shortstuffsushi 4y ago
It's funny you linked to buyrealgas - I had been trying to avoid them since they seem a bit.. radically anti-ethanol ("first of all, we're literally burning our food!"). Anyway... never heard of using av gas in a lawn mower, that sounds crazy to me. Maybe I'm just hugely naive on small motor mechanics, but the difference between standard, 10% eth 87 and premium eth free 91 seems to be about 0, performance wise, and if you end up cleaning the engine once every year or two anyway... idk. I think I mentioned above, but my frame of reference is Wisconsin. Outside of Milwaukee/Waukesha county, most gas stations sell eth free premium, and many people here actually do make the trip to get it.
- jandrese 4y ago
  The problem with ethanol in power equipment is that it tends to dissolve rubber seals/tubes. For some reason small engine manufacturers were extremely slow to switch to ethanol safe rubber and as a result one of the most common failure modes is for the carburetor jets to clog up with nasty semi-dissolved rubber. It's also just the case that people keep their old 80s and 90s lawn mowers running because they only put a couple dozen hours of runtime on the things each year so they don't tend to die except when the ethanol wrecks the fuel system.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    An additional issue for low use stuff is ethanol is hydroscopic and many of the other compounds are volatile. Even in a steel tank most modern fuel turns into pink slime after some months. Large tanks are generally okay, but if you try to start a small carbouretted engine after 6mo and haven't drained the tank you'll need to clean the jets and replace the spark plug.