4 ms·

Not quite. Yes, Archers Daniels Midland collects a monstrous undeserved federal subsidy. But unleaded gasoline needs something to raise its octane rating. MBT

by ncmncm 4y ago

Not quite. Yes, Archers Daniels Midland collects a monstrous undeserved federal subsidy. But unleaded gasoline needs something to raise its octane rating. MBTE turned out to be a public health and ecological disaster. What we use now is ethanol. Probably some other alternative would be cheaper and not burn crop acreage, but wasting corn has been good politics: corn farming states have a preponderance of senators.

shortstuffsushi 4y ago
> unleaded gasoline needs something to raise its octane rating Probably naive, what does this mean? There are unleaded gases for sale that are ethanol free at some gas stations (typically only the premium / highest octane) which are often preferred for small motors / high end engines. I don't think they mix in lead, is MTBE what is added instead in those cases? I haven't heard of MTBE before. ETA: I've been able to find a number of sites for WI gas stations saying "we have ethanol free," but none of them mention what is added in its place (if anything).
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Some of them do use lead: https://www.classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/products/classic-fuel-solutions-formula-105-event-cc https://www.classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/products/classic-fuel... That's a UK supplier but an answer on Quora suggests 'race' fuels are sold in the US with lead too. Not legal to use on the road though. > Effective January 1, 1996, leaded gasoline was banned by the Clean Air Act for use in new vehicles other than aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    The presence of small amounts of lead in a niche motor fuel product in a country that doesn't have a corn industry to speak of in ethanol subsidy program is irrelevant to the point of dishonest when the subject at hand is US corn subsidies. The only leaded fuel you can buy in the US is aviation fuel. You can't buy it at a gas station and the only reason it still exists with lead in it is because that is necessary for compliance with government rules that regulate what fuel can be sold for that specific purpose.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use leaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). You do get alkylate gasoline, maybe that's what is being sold: > The availability of alkylate petrol is limited. The actual alkylation process to produce Aspen is a much more advanced and expensive process which only a few refineries in the world can produce. Even if new ways of producing alkylate petrol is developed, regular petrol will still be the dominant type of motor fuel in the world. https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html I found this website, that lists places that sell ethanol free gas, and the number of them that appear to be Marinas, combined with the bit above about lead being used for marine purpsose makes me think they're just using lead.
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        >You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use unleaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). Somebody call Congress! Think of the children! Pretty much nobody does this because on the high end race fuels as well as various alcohol fuels are more available and better supported by industry and on the low end ethanol free premium is substantially cheaper. If lots of people did it it wouldn't still be legal. Dumping 100LL into your boat or race car just isn't a good value way to solve a problem anyone has. > I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). I hope I'm not the only one appreciating the schadenfreude here. It reminds me of when people unscrew the spout from their crappy compliant cans. Regardless, the overwhelming majority of these people just drag their butt to whatever local station has ethanol free premium rather than go to the airport because it's a faster/easier/cheaper way of accomplishing the same goal. The current status quo is stupid but the rules are written by a bunch of jerks who either a) DGAF about what happens beyond the next election cycle or b) DGAF so long as they're not responsible and can collect their pension so it's no surprise that the things people do to compensate are non-optimal.
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  You don't necessarily need to add anything depending on the engine being used. from my limited understanding most small, carbureted engines do perfectly fine on gasoline without an anti-knock additive. more intelligent engines will usually retard timing with low octane fuel so that the engine doesn't knock but you will lose power.
njarboe 4y ago
"corn farming states have a preponderance of senators" And the first primary or caucus state of the election season is Iowa. The state produces the most corn in the Union and by far the most corn per capita. Large corn subsidies will likely continue until this fact changes.
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  Well, they have 2 senators like all the other states... perhaps though that's suggesting that they're sparsely populated so their senators seem out of proportion to the small number of voters they represent (compared to their Representatives, who are few compared to populous states like CA, NY, TX, GA etc.) The Iowa caucus system certainly is an attention-grab, but I don't think it's single-handedly responsible for the whole system of ag subsidies (which presumably has also been championed by other farm states like NE and KS).
missedthecue 4y ago
What subsidy does ADM get?
- tstrimple 4y ago
  Ethanol subsidies. https://www.masterresource.org/political-capitalism/adm-ethanol-subsidies-case-study/ https://www.masterresource.org/political-capitalism/adm-etha... > Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. > At least 43 percent of ADM’s annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM’s corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30….
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    I know that ag subsidies exist, I'm not getting why you or the writer of the article you link assume that ADM gets the profit from it. It seems like a misunderstanding of both ag subsidies as they exist today and of ADM's business model
    - tstrimple 4y ago
      Because subsidies are a matter of public record and you can look up who is receiving them.
      - missedthecue 4y ago
        I know how farm subsidies work. Most of it is crop insurance. ADM doesn't get anything to their bottom line when a farmer gets their crops insured at an affordable price.

by ncmncm 4y ago

shortstuffsushi 4y ago

> unleaded gasoline needs something to raise its octane rating Probably naive, what does this mean? There are unleaded gases for sale that are ethanol free at some gas stations (typically only the premium / highest octane) which are often preferred for small motors / high end engines. I don't think they mix in lead, is MTBE what is added instead in those cases? I haven't heard of MTBE before. ETA: I've been able to find a number of sites for WI gas stations saying "we have ethanol free," but none of them mention what is added in its place (if anything).

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Some of them do use lead: https://www.classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/products/classic-fuel-solutions-formula-105-event-cc https://www.classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/products/classic-fuel... That's a UK supplier but an answer on Quora suggests 'race' fuels are sold in the US with lead too. Not legal to use on the road though. > Effective January 1, 1996, leaded gasoline was banned by the Clean Air Act for use in new vehicles other than aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The presence of small amounts of lead in a niche motor fuel product in a country that doesn't have a corn industry to speak of in ethanol subsidy program is irrelevant to the point of dishonest when the subject at hand is US corn subsidies. The only leaded fuel you can buy in the US is aviation fuel. You can't buy it at a gas station and the only reason it still exists with lead in it is because that is necessary for compliance with government rules that regulate what fuel can be sold for that specific purpose.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use leaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). You do get alkylate gasoline, maybe that's what is being sold: > The availability of alkylate petrol is limited. The actual alkylation process to produce Aspen is a much more advanced and expensive process which only a few refineries in the world can produce. Even if new ways of producing alkylate petrol is developed, regular petrol will still be the dominant type of motor fuel in the world. https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html https://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html I found this website, that lists places that sell ethanol free gas, and the number of them that appear to be Marinas, combined with the bit above about lead being used for marine purpsose makes me think they're just using lead.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      >You probably replied before I added the bit that suggests in America it's still legal to use unleaded fuel in racing cars, marine and farming equipment (as well as aviation, as you mention). Somebody call Congress! Think of the children! Pretty much nobody does this because on the high end race fuels as well as various alcohol fuels are more available and better supported by industry and on the low end ethanol free premium is substantially cheaper. If lots of people did it it wouldn't still be legal. Dumping 100LL into your boat or race car just isn't a good value way to solve a problem anyone has. > I found several posts from people saying that they buy aviation fuel because they don't like ethanol for their lawn equipment, and presumably people informed enough about the issue to intentionally buy leaded avation fuel would know about other options available). I hope I'm not the only one appreciating the schadenfreude here. It reminds me of when people unscrew the spout from their crappy compliant cans. Regardless, the overwhelming majority of these people just drag their butt to whatever local station has ethanol free premium rather than go to the airport because it's a faster/easier/cheaper way of accomplishing the same goal. The current status quo is stupid but the rules are written by a bunch of jerks who either a) DGAF about what happens beyond the next election cycle or b) DGAF so long as they're not responsible and can collect their pension so it's no surprise that the things people do to compensate are non-optimal.
enragedcacti 4y ago
You don't necessarily need to add anything depending on the engine being used. from my limited understanding most small, carbureted engines do perfectly fine on gasoline without an anti-knock additive. more intelligent engines will usually retard timing with low octane fuel so that the engine doesn't knock but you will lose power.

njarboe 4y ago

"corn farming states have a preponderance of senators" And the first primary or caucus state of the election season is Iowa. The state produces the most corn in the Union and by far the most corn per capita. Large corn subsidies will likely continue until this fact changes.

blacksmith_tb 4y ago
Well, they have 2 senators like all the other states... perhaps though that's suggesting that they're sparsely populated so their senators seem out of proportion to the small number of voters they represent (compared to their Representatives, who are few compared to populous states like CA, NY, TX, GA etc.) The Iowa caucus system certainly is an attention-grab, but I don't think it's single-handedly responsible for the whole system of ag subsidies (which presumably has also been championed by other farm states like NE and KS).

missedthecue 4y ago

What subsidy does ADM get?

tstrimple 4y ago
Ethanol subsidies. https://www.masterresource.org/political-capitalism/adm-ethanol-subsidies-case-study/ https://www.masterresource.org/political-capitalism/adm-etha... > Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. > At least 43 percent of ADM’s annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM’s corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30….
- missedthecue 4y ago
  I know that ag subsidies exist, I'm not getting why you or the writer of the article you link assume that ADM gets the profit from it. It seems like a misunderstanding of both ag subsidies as they exist today and of ADM's business model
  - tstrimple 4y ago
    Because subsidies are a matter of public record and you can look up who is receiving them.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      I know how farm subsidies work. Most of it is crop insurance. ADM doesn't get anything to their bottom line when a farmer gets their crops insured at an affordable price.