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Investing in Flow

avcab1984 4y ago
Cronyism is alive and well on Sand Hill road but "Adventure" left Venture capital long ago.
dominotw 4y ago
> There’s a reason the federal government started subsidizing home mortgages: someone who is bought in to where he lives cares more about where he lives. Hasn't this thought process proven wrong in europe. Renters were similarly engaged in local communities where there were sufficient protections for long term renters.( I can't find the study now ). I really don't understand why govt need to be in the business of providing home ownership subsidies. Seems like it has contributed to exacerbating current situation in US.
UmYeahNo 4y ago
Anyone know what this magical idea is? Color me skeptical, but the deliberately vague strawman arguments in the post read between the lines to be something like: "If you're a homeowner we want to your equity and if your a renter we want your rent". I don't harbor any illusions that flow wants to help anyone but themselves. I have no idea what flow actually is, but if it's something like "airbnb but permanent on the blockchain" like we work was "Airbnb but for your work desk", then no. Heck no.
- phphphphp 4y ago
  it is almost certainly some variation on co-living
  - dangerlibrary 4y ago
    "Why have 3 roommates in a house when you could have 300 roommates and live in a recently, cheaply converted commercial building designed to be a clone of the Googleplex?"
    - OmarIsmail 4y ago
      That actually sounds pretty cool! If that's _not_ what Flow is, I hope somebody does roll with that idea.
      - phphphphp 4y ago
        Already exists all over the world, just Google “co-living”!
        dominotw 4y ago
        I think the one in US are just furnished rooms with some amenities like cleaning. These seem to be aimed at young people < 25 yrs. I am looking for ones where all age groups live together. People with kids, young ppl , grandparents ect.
    - phphphphp 4y ago
      Co-living is actually pretty great when done properly: it’s not a solution to the housing crisis, and suffers from the same economic problems as WeWork did with office space, but as a resident, it’s great — assuming you want to live with other people. Most co-living spaces end up going broke (including the one I’ve lived in) so I don’t have much faith in Flow’s viability if it is co-living… but it’d probably be great to live there on VC’s dime (just like WeWork was great when subsidised by VCs).
      - ryanbrunner 4y ago
        "Done properly" is probably highly correlated with a high degree of control and ownership (if not in a financial sense, in a sense of ownership and responsibility), both of which are extremely ill-suited to a large company running things nation-wide.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Apartment buildings with amenities and probably an app to unlock your door. Incredible.
  - vagabund 4y ago
    facebook is just a forum where you use your real name
- cma 4y ago
  My guess is it is a new way of quickly moving furniture so they can have you move locations every 29 days so you don't get any legal eviction protections. But your rent for this new venture buys into a blockchain ponzi scam and you get some kind of token out of it.
foobarbecue 4y ago
I don't get why anyone would still do business with Adam Neumann.
- datalopers 4y ago
  Neumann provided very lucrative exits for his earliest investors. I assume that’s the play.
kumarvvr 4y ago
> Adam is a visionary leader who revolutionized the second largest asset class in the world I was of the opinion that Adam made a serious and flawed business decision of taking long term leases with borrowed money, but selling short term fluid leases for revenue leading to books that are incredibly risky. At the time of collapse, the sky high valuation was basically a branding exercise, rather than actual business value (adjusted for risk) > it’s often under appreciated that only one person has fundamentally redesigned the office experience and led a paradigm-changing global company in the process How is that A16z is oblivious to the fact that astronomical valuations were tempered after scrutiny of the business of WeWork? >We understand how difficult it is to build something like this Again. They took cheaply available VC money, turned it into long term leases. That is a terrible business to be in, risk wise. Not to mention bullshit about "community" and what not that they tried to build around WeWork. >Adam returns to the theme of connecting people through transforming their physical spaces and building communities where people spend the most time: their homes. What is novel about this? Aren't Cul de Sacs supposed to be this? Or even apartments?
- faangiq 4y ago
  Meh A2z or whatever they’re called doesn’t really care about the OPM. I’d fund him just for entertainment factor. The world needs more spirituality in its valuations. And they’ll just dump their shares on a bigger fool like SoftBank.
  - bluelightning2k 4y ago
    The reality is that fame (even the notoriety version) gives people the ability to summon literally hundreds of millions of marketing for free. All things being equal, that makes them a pretty good bet. Flow probably will have a far easier time getting PR than almost any other startup this year. Same goes for inbound CVs, follow on investment, and basically anything else that makes startups tick. So it's not that surprising that he can raise from an S Tier investor with a smile and a landing page that's literally just a logo.
- mangecoeur 4y ago
  Adam should write a book “how to fail upwards in silicon valley” What is infuriating is that there is so much great work done by great people on building strong resilient and affordable towns which are a pleasure to live and work in, but the easy VC money flows to the wierdo charlatans instead.
skywhopper 4y ago
This is really gross. Andreessen, who’s used his sway to stop any slight increase in housing density in his own town, talks about the broken housing system and how investing billions into a failed scammer will revolutionize housing in a way that’s completely unstated, but presumably involves attempting to find ways to collect rent from people who need housing while also putting all the capital risk onto those individuals as well. The worst thing we can do for housing is to give any credence to this company’s plans.
- rvz 4y ago
  Unfortunately, This scammer 'Adam Neumann' hasn't failed and still was able to exit out of WeWork with a ton of money. So he is not entirely a failed scammer and was able to get away with it and try again. An actual failed scammer is Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos.
  - rexreed 4y ago
    I guess a distinction between a "successful" scammer (Adam Neumann) and an "unsuccessful" scammer (Elizabeth Holmes). Scammers alike but I guess different post-scam collapse treatment by the investment community. Makes you wonder about a lot of things.
bluelightning2k 4y ago
Next week on HN: Adam Neumann sells Flow trademark to Flow for 2 million.
bluelightning2k 4y ago
I think A16Z needs to invest more in character references
- kweinber 4y ago
  or an HBO Max account.
  - bluelightning2k 4y ago
    Or a different type of character reference; a character count for the landing page which requires multiple paragraphs of information before confidently claiming to have solved shelter for all mankind.
bluelightning2k 4y ago
Adam Neumann is what happens when you put all your SPECIAL stats into charisma
- dangerlibrary 4y ago
  Need some in Endurance for Chem Resistant
  - bluelightning2k 4y ago
    Nice! Although I think he dumped the rest into Luck right before he hi-rolled Softbank.
mdorazio 4y ago
Let me see if I got this right. Instead of a16z using its resources to actively push for YIMBY changes in society and politics that would actually have positive outcomes on the problems stated, it's investing in the next idea from the WeWork dream seller / scammer, and we don't even know what the venture is? Is this what the venture capital world has become in 2022?
- mgfist 4y ago
  For all their "American Dynamism" talk, Marc is just another classic rich NIMBY. source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/marc-andreessens-opposition-housing-project-nimby/671061/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/marc-andre...
rexreed 4y ago
I used to have a high opinion of venture capital, seeing them as tech visionaries and folks with access to deep pockets that fund the best technology that is truly changing the world. Maybe something has changed, but now all I see are just financial hustlers, working markets, trying to capture or corner spaces with "unicorns", looking for M&A activity that might have already been pre-negotiated looking for something to fill that spot, and weird market plays that never seemed to make sense financially (Web3? WeWork?). My perception now of VC is much like any other private equity play. They're in it for the financial hustle, and I don't feel that their "ideas" really hold much water. Why we look up to VCs as thought-leaders and visionaires when they are financial creatures beats me. While the top VC players may have earned the respect by themselves being visionary entrepreneurs (once, decades ago in many cases), the rest of the VC market is filled with also-ran investors who have never been practicing entrepreneurs, following markets like lemmings and looking for a relatively quick buck while not even understanding the markets they invest in. When I hear someone is an investor, especially if they're not one of the handful few of well-known investors, I just think to myself "banker". I don't know if it's always been like this, but it certainly feels like it's gotten worse.
- RandomLensman 4y ago
  Occasionally, VCs fund something that changes the world, but I don't think that is necessary (and maybe also not even strictly sufficient) to make money in that business.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  I think VCs reflect the market. Alot of the fundamental new things have been done already. So if you’re looking for new sources of huge returns, you’re looking for ways to do things differently vs inventing some new technology. The other thing is that you have more really rich people who control lots of money without a lot of governance.
- takanori 4y ago
  Andy Grove's response when John Doerr decided to leave intel for kleiner "Come on, don't you want to be a general manager and own a real P&L? I'll let you run Intel's software division. John, venture capital, that's not a real job. It's like being a real estate agent."
qlm 4y ago
Maybe the solution to the housing crisis is to build more affordable housing and to eliminate the practice of using housing as an investment / safe place to park money. Also, outlaw or heavily regulate Airbnb. I don't think another VC-funded app with cool branding is going to save us.
- SwiftyBug 4y ago
  Honest question: why are there so may Airbnbs? What's the advantage over traditional hotels / hostels? Are the prices significantly lower?
  - ryanbrunner 4y ago
    They were definitely lower when AirBnB launched, although most of the difference is gone nowadays (might vary by locale). AirBnBs are also far more likely to have a fully equipped kitchen setup, separate rooms, and larger setups for families and groups, none of which are impossible with hotels but are definitely not very common. I do think AirBnB generates way too much negative externalities for the value it brings, but there is value in it for the consumer.
- misiti3780 4y ago
  I dont get why creating more housing means housing is no longer an investment. It's still an safe investment, it's not going to zero, just will not continue to be a great investment.
ctur 4y ago
Finally! A potential solution to the housing crisis. Newly VC-infused and rehabilitated Adam Neumann. Yes yes yes. The world needs more of this. This is also a good hedge against the crypto pyramid starting to slow down. Leveraging peoples' willingness to try to get rich quick to create a pyramid was profitable, but once people lost their money and crypto lost its luster, they wandered off and were no longer easy victims^Wcustomers... but imagine if VCs could also control your housing. Wandering off is so much harder! Built-in market protection. Brilliant.
thiscatis 4y ago
Fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, you’re a visionary Adam.
gargs 4y ago
> revolutionized the second largest asset class in the world — commercial real estate — by bringing community and brand to an industry in which neither existed before This sounds very disingenuous. Starbucks was arguably the first 'community brand' where people would associate one with an informal meeting place rather than to drink a coffee. Even in Silicon Valley, there are cafe chains renowned for this meeting vibe. And then there are country clubs, which are newer and more bourgeois. Even the neighborhood newspaper kiosk in historical European cities did a better job of bringing community and brand to real estate than WeWork.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Country clubs are a new thing? I'm legitimately curious -- I thought country clubs were a thing of the past. Are they having some kind of comeback?
  - ryanbrunner 4y ago
    Maybe dependent on locale, but country clubs never really went anywhere. They tend to be more of an invaluable networking tool with more traditional professions vs tech, but my lawyer friends consider country club memberships to be more or less an essential part of doing business.
gregwebs 4y ago
It's notable that there are no references in this article. We actually have a 9 month supply of new housing now (which is a lot, that's up from a low of just a few months). Population growth in the US continues to go ever lower (but isn't going negative). Here is a nice data-driven video overview of this current economic situation and also about how this likely indicates a worsening recession ahead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6JBX8Y8XQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6JBX8Y8XQM It would be nice to see this data explored in a more localized way. I know there are excesses of new housing in some places and shortages in other places. I also don't know how much of the current excess housing supply is due to houses being built in less desirable locations.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Of course there are no references. The whole pitch is about vibes. Fun to see investor storytime being regurgitated by the investors in question with even fewer details than they probably got from Adam. Something like localized analysis of housing probably doesn't "scale" enough for a VC firm like a16z.
TradingPlaces 4y ago
I see a lot of confusion over why anyone would want to take a stake in an Adam Neumann biz. Some guesses… VCs are looking for return, and quickly, which is why they have glommed on to crypto projects. In the old model, you invest money, wait 5-10 years, and get a payoff when the company goes public or gets sold. With crypto, there is a much more immediate payoff with unregistered securities, AKA “tokens”. And then maybe a second payoff in 5-10 years. There are no details from a16z or Flow on what this actually is, but I am guessing tokenized rent payments on a blockchain in some fashion, promising some sort of equity to renters, and quick returns to a16z. They came out with a splashy investment and a high valuation, and are hoping to make their money back on the unregistered securities, AKA tokens, and who knows, maybe more in 5-10 years. Never underestimate the cynicism of a16z.
- rchaud 4y ago
  There are few industries as cynical as venture capital. They won't ever invest in projects explicitly designed for public welfare because "the economics don't work" or "the innovation isn't there". But they will invest eye-watering sums into financing student newspapers for the middle-aged (Substack) or 'turn your car into a public taxi' businesses, knowing that 90% of them won't amount to anything.
  - badpun 4y ago
    > There are few industries as cynical as venture capital. They won't ever invest in projects explicitly designed for public welfare because "the economics don't work" As oposed to which industries exactly?
    - rchaud 4y ago
      "industry" wasn't the right word, as VCs don't produce anything. As investment philosophies go, it's very cynical.
  - shaburn 4y ago
    8200+ points but you don't acknowledge the fact VCs are legally bound to invest LPs money for economic returns.
sethjr5rtfgh 4y ago
antiverse 4y ago
Just flag it, it's not worth the effort to get into this. For anyone not aware of the context, look into the recent NIMBY bullshit by Andreessen.
- throwaway_4ever 4y ago
  And if you want a TL;DR: Andreesen, who this article is written by, was himself trying and succeeding to get his own city council to axe housing development in his own neighborhood, causing the very problems he's writing about.
bmitc 4y ago
That's a lot of words to find out exactly zero about Flow and what it's doing, for which the buried link to the website also does nothing to explain. Also, it's kind of rich to hear a billionaire wax poetic about the woes of the real estate market. According to a quick search, he of no surprise owns several properties, including a $177 million property.
Ecstatify 4y ago
WeWork 2.0 - Elizabeth Homes Edition. The disclaimer at the end is nearly half the length of the post.
captainregex 4y ago
Easy for AH- they charge fees on the capital they deploy. Adam and his BS are ultimately the problem of your poor grandmother’s teaching pension getting invested in a noted charlatan.
buro9 4y ago
This is almost certainly going to be a rent-seeking venture that attempts to sell "freedom of movement" by having something that feels like student accommodation for adults and small families... a kind of shared living space that can be rented month-to-month with some perks like community spaces and services, pre-furnished, etc. To sell a lifestyle. Of course that comes at a cost, one that very few people can afford. At least, it will be unaffordable to most. It is always true that more people than one realises is actually awash with money (thanks to the prior generation benefiting from incredible growth of their assets) and for them this freedom of movement by renting on a rolling short-term basis and upping on a whim will allow them to further access high paying work. I'm really not sure that what housing needs is for large-scale VC money to be poured in (and the corresponding expectations of return on that). Will it be profitable? Yes. Is it ethical? No.
readonthegoapp 4y ago
I'll be curious to see what they come up with I guess this is where wework was headed before he got forced out I put together a simple site to try to develop the solution to at least one of the problems of apartment living -- loneliness https://myapartmentfamily.com/ https://myapartmentfamily.com/
- NelsonMinar 4y ago
  you might want to read the room here before promoting your adjacent idea.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    Neumann and a16z suck, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing relevant ideas here.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Hey, seems like a cool idea! I've always lived in apartments and wished there was an easier way to meet people than relying on bumping into them in the hallways. Have you built anything yet? By the way, I noticed a typo -- "aprtment."
  - readonthegoapp 4y ago
    thanks! and thanks for the typo note -- fixed. nothing built, other than the carrd.co website there. i kind of wanted to put something down 'on paper' to try to develop the idea a bit more myself, maybe show it around online here and there - at least see if i'm just a monster or if other folks have the same problem, etc. and it's def helped to put the site together - it's just allowed me to take the next step - think about: - how to contact people, - what types of friendships/relationships/apt-family people might be interested in making/creating, - how would we actually set up an initial meeting between future-apt-family members - is 'family' too strong a word/idea? part of my goal is to increase solidarity generally. - could / should these communities be able to evolve into something much more thna 'just' a family -- tenant union, buy the building/property, land/building-type trust stuff? i thought of 'competition' (co-opetition?) that already exists, things like: - apt communities doing 'pizza days' or whatever once a month - some communities have fakebook groups, etc. - some folks will actually meet around the building - parking garage, street, laundry room, dog park, walking around the hood, etc. - some folks will meet on Nextdoor and i didn't want to fall into the 'trap' of trying to build something online -- or mostly or only online. my natural inclination for a lot of things these days seems to be 'avoid doing this venture online because it will suck -- almost by definition'. that's a bit harsh, but just my take. some of my ideas, like a kb idea, it's online-only and that's fine/good. but when i think of 'online apt community', the closest thing i can think of right now is 'nextdoor' -- which... has always felt like a racist/classist cesspool to me, whenever i checked into it. just my take. so doing yet another online community like Nextdoor, or fakebook, just has an 'ick' factor for me. one buddy said his communities' 'pizza days' are all he has ever needed to make NEWFOREVERFRIENDS in whatever city he has ever been in, and that this MyAptFam idea is completely stupid or worse. and then i met a kid who said, during some discussion i wasn't even involved in, "i'm NEVER moving to another city where I don't know someone again."
Tao3300 4y ago
So how's Flowcarbon doing? Was that a good idea?
- NelsonMinar 4y ago
  I guess it is dead? FlowCarbon was Adam's idea last quarter, some sort of carbon credit / crypto currency confection. https://www.vox.com/recode/23142106/adam-neumann-crypto-carbon-credit-offset-flowcarbon https://www.vox.com/recode/23142106/adam-neumann-crypto-carb... https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/07/17/adam-neumanns-new-carbon-credit-crypto-startup-is/ https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/07/17/adam-neumanns-new-...
  - Tao3300 4y ago
    Right. So the most charitable interpretation is that a16z is just throwing good money after bad at this point.
chirau 4y ago
Any predictions on what Flow actually does?
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Coworking spaces automated by bots in your home!
djohnston 4y ago
> In a world where limited access to home ownership continues to be a driving force behind inequality and anxiety, giving renters a sense of security, community, and genuine ownership has transformative power for our society. To paraphrase, "we will continue hurling investment money into residential real estate to create a permanent serfdom of renters."
msoad 4y ago
My guess: A network of apartment complexes across the country that you can own equity in the entire enterprise instead of one single home. You can "freely" move between the apartments without having to go through financing etc. This can be interesting with a massive capital and enough time to build out the network but seeing this cocaine addict's name in the mix make me feel this is going to fail fast. Real estate is a slow industry, VC money doesn't have patient for it
- s1k3 4y ago
  Lot of people dunking on Neumann here. But the space is very interesting and certainly there is a market need. No one seems to understand that Neumann built a massively successful company, because they watch the documentaries and think he’s a scumbag for failing to deliver an IPO.
  - mtalantikite 4y ago
    I don't know, taking $22 billion to make a company worth $4 billion doesn't seem that impressive. It's just office space at the end of the day, what's so interesting about that? He just was able to grift his way into a fortune is what I see as the impressive part.
  - cma 4y ago
    Wasn't he the guy that had the company license the trademark from himself privately, lease his own privately held properties and stuff? It was all very close to embezzlement if I'm remembering the right company.
    - dpflan 4y ago
      Speculation: I feel like that’s some of underlying value for the valuation, real estate, most likely owned by this known self-dealer.
smeeth 4y ago
I am surprised to see so many negative responses. I bet most of the people here agree 100% with the problems and structural shifts this memo identified, and that technological innovation in the housing space to facilitate both social cohesion and affordability would be a *very good thing*. Sure, Adam had some highly publicized issues at WeWork. Also, a16z is on a lot of people's shit list right now. Still, why do so few people seem to be rooting for their success? If you're prone to cynicism I get it - the only way this can end is grift - but personally I would like to see more companies trying to address these issues and Adam seems like he genuinely cares about it. Maybe a little too much, even.
- phphphphp 4y ago
  The problem is that you can be a well meaning person, take a bunch of capital and unintentionally cause huge problems. Look at Airbnb, for example, which is causing havoc in the rental markets of major and minor cities across the globe. Airbnb certainly didn’t set out to cause harm, and I’m sure the founders would actively argue to this day that what they’ve done is for the greater good… same with Uber. If you accept that the markets are inherently good and the most profitable outcome is the best outcome, then it’s easy enough to look at this as a positive move… but if you see capital + technology as a force for bad when unchecked, this is just more of the same — success for Flow could come at the expense of others. Adam’s history is one of not caring about rules or expectations, he caused significant financial harm to a lot of people with WeWork and while I am not particularly cynical about Flow, I think the cynicism from others deserves more credit — it’s not just contrarianism, the housing market is very vulnerable (see all the private equity that pushed up American house prices recently).
- bko 4y ago
  A lot of the negativity comes from the fact that Adam Neumann is involved. He's incredibly dishonest and a borderline scam artist. He set fire to billions and came out incredibly wealthy. You may not care about the people he took money from, but what he did was still wrong. Another point is that there is no concrete business or idea. The memo at least doesn't explain the actual business. It's vaporware. There are thousands of people with track records that want to open real cashflow businesses and can't get funding. And then there's someone like this that can manifest billion dollar companies with an idea. It just strikes them as unfair.
monkey_monkey 4y ago
So did Adam buy a bunch of houses and apartments at peak valuations which he'll generously be offering to sell to Flow for a very modest profit?
monkaiju 4y ago
Housing is absolutely not an issue that more consolidation and VC money can fix. Watching the US just nosedive right into becoming a renter society and giving up on the prospect of ownership is pretty wild...
abeppu 4y ago
I think not everything needs a venture-backed, take-over-the-world solution. For the issues being raised here (home ownership is inaccessible to many, renters don't have stability, security), aside from greater protections for renters, another class of existing solution is Community Land Trusts. These organizations retain ownership of the land, have a charter that's targeted at keeping housing affordable (or some related mission), lease out land on very long terms (like 99 years) with contracts that place limitations on resale of any improvements on the land. These restrictions can make housing permanently affordable, and removes housing on that land from being an asset for speculation. Residents get security from the very long terms of their loans, the governance of their CLT, and ownership of improvements on the land. The CLT can use revenue to create and maintain community amenities. Sometimes good arrangements already exist, but they're not going to be rapidly scaled up across the country because no investor stands to get a windfall from rapid expansion.
- qlm 4y ago
  It's sickening. These people don't care about improving people's living conditions. They care about extracting more and more and more money by exploiting a crisis that they have had a hand in creating.
  - xcom86 4y ago
    Status quo is not ideal and I don't trust the government to do what is necessary to alleviate the situation. Let's see if innovation, driven by greed, can change it.
    - shaburn 4y ago
      Regulation just pushed the largest mortgage lender out of the market : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-14/wells-fargo-to-cut-back-mortgage-business-after-scandals-take-toll?srnd=premium https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-14/wells-far...
      - Geeek 4y ago
rzazueta 4y ago
- solumos 4y ago
  Say what you will about Adam Neumann, but he didn't commit fraud
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bpt3 4y ago
    Please explain.
  - neilk 4y ago
    Neumann bought ownership stakes in properties which he then leased to WeWork. I don’t know if this meets the legal definition of fraud but it’s absurdly shady, a clear conflict of interest. https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/16/we-company-ceo-in-hot-water-over-being-both-a-tenant-and-a-landlord/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/16/we-company-ceo-in-hot-wate...
    - benjaminwootton 4y ago
      Fraud: “wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.” Not sure that fits as I assume it was both legal and didn’t involve any deception.
      - solumos 4y ago
        If it were illegal or did involve deception, surely his investors would have pursued legal action rather than giving him a golden parachute.
      - wittycardio 4y ago
        I'm going to guess you're big on crypto too yeah ?
mtalantikite 4y ago
> The second model: you rent an apartment, but: it’s a soulless experience; do you even meet your neighbors, much less have any friends in your complex? Does it feel like home, or just a place to sleep? Are you proud to bring friends and family to visit, or hesitant? Excuse me, what? I've absolutely met my neighbors. In past buildings in Brooklyn I've gone out to dinner with some, spent hours on the stoop having conversations with others, taken care of their kids while they ran an errand, and had all sorts of positive (and negative) experiences with them. That's what living in apartments in a dense city community is like. People come hang out in my place all the time. It's hard to even comment on what they're proposing, since there are no details, but the last thing we need is more single family homes and corporate landlords.
- mpalmer 4y ago
  I guess the only frame of reference this set of VC/founders have to go on is the last time they rented before becoming millionaires.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  This is so classist (not your comment but op). To imply that folks who don't own their home shouldn't/couldn't be "proud" to bring their loved ones there. Are you kidding me? Entire generations, communities, families have lived and died in rental housing. Entire swaths of the population. This shows very little respect for them.
  - mtalantikite 4y ago
    Absolutely. My mom grew up in a predominately working class Irish public housing complex that my grandmother lived in for almost her entire adult life. It was small, but 5 kids grew up there, and when they had their own kids, we'd go over every Sunday for dinner. Not once did anyone feel ashamed to have all the extended Irish family over in that small apartment. It always amazes me how people that know so little about the world try to tell the rest of us how we should live or feel.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
twalla 4y ago
tl;dr it's wework but for residential real estate... nobody asked for this, it sounds awful and fuck adam neumann

avcab1984 4y ago

Cronyism is alive and well on Sand Hill road but "Adventure" left Venture capital long ago.

> There’s a reason the federal government started subsidizing home mortgages: someone who is bought in to where he lives cares more about where he lives. Hasn't this thought process proven wrong in europe. Renters were similarly engaged in local communities where there were sufficient protections for long term renters.( I can't find the study now ). I really don't understand why govt need to be in the business of providing home ownership subsidies. Seems like it has contributed to exacerbating current situation in US.

UmYeahNo 4y ago

Anyone know what this magical idea is? Color me skeptical, but the deliberately vague strawman arguments in the post read between the lines to be something like: "If you're a homeowner we want to your equity and if your a renter we want your rent". I don't harbor any illusions that flow wants to help anyone but themselves. I have no idea what flow actually is, but if it's something like "airbnb but permanent on the blockchain" like we work was "Airbnb but for your work desk", then no. Heck no.

phphphphp 4y ago
it is almost certainly some variation on co-living
- dangerlibrary 4y ago
  "Why have 3 roommates in a house when you could have 300 roommates and live in a recently, cheaply converted commercial building designed to be a clone of the Googleplex?"
  - OmarIsmail 4y ago
    That actually sounds pretty cool! If that's _not_ what Flow is, I hope somebody does roll with that idea.
    - phphphphp 4y ago
      Already exists all over the world, just Google “co-living”!
      - dominotw 4y ago
        I think the one in US are just furnished rooms with some amenities like cleaning. These seem to be aimed at young people < 25 yrs. I am looking for ones where all age groups live together. People with kids, young ppl , grandparents ect.
  - phphphphp 4y ago
    Co-living is actually pretty great when done properly: it’s not a solution to the housing crisis, and suffers from the same economic problems as WeWork did with office space, but as a resident, it’s great — assuming you want to live with other people. Most co-living spaces end up going broke (including the one I’ve lived in) so I don’t have much faith in Flow’s viability if it is co-living… but it’d probably be great to live there on VC’s dime (just like WeWork was great when subsidised by VCs).
    - ryanbrunner 4y ago
      "Done properly" is probably highly correlated with a high degree of control and ownership (if not in a financial sense, in a sense of ownership and responsibility), both of which are extremely ill-suited to a large company running things nation-wide.
ethanbond 4y ago
Apartment buildings with amenities and probably an app to unlock your door. Incredible.
- vagabund 4y ago
  facebook is just a forum where you use your real name
cma 4y ago
My guess is it is a new way of quickly moving furniture so they can have you move locations every 29 days so you don't get any legal eviction protections. But your rent for this new venture buys into a blockchain ponzi scam and you get some kind of token out of it.

foobarbecue 4y ago

I don't get why anyone would still do business with Adam Neumann.

datalopers 4y ago
Neumann provided very lucrative exits for his earliest investors. I assume that’s the play.

kumarvvr 4y ago

> Adam is a visionary leader who revolutionized the second largest asset class in the world I was of the opinion that Adam made a serious and flawed business decision of taking long term leases with borrowed money, but selling short term fluid leases for revenue leading to books that are incredibly risky. At the time of collapse, the sky high valuation was basically a branding exercise, rather than actual business value (adjusted for risk) > it’s often under appreciated that only one person has fundamentally redesigned the office experience and led a paradigm-changing global company in the process How is that A16z is oblivious to the fact that astronomical valuations were tempered after scrutiny of the business of WeWork? >We understand how difficult it is to build something like this Again. They took cheaply available VC money, turned it into long term leases. That is a terrible business to be in, risk wise. Not to mention bullshit about "community" and what not that they tried to build around WeWork. >Adam returns to the theme of connecting people through transforming their physical spaces and building communities where people spend the most time: their homes. What is novel about this? Aren't Cul de Sacs supposed to be this? Or even apartments?

faangiq 4y ago
Meh A2z or whatever they’re called doesn’t really care about the OPM. I’d fund him just for entertainment factor. The world needs more spirituality in its valuations. And they’ll just dump their shares on a bigger fool like SoftBank.
- bluelightning2k 4y ago
  The reality is that fame (even the notoriety version) gives people the ability to summon literally hundreds of millions of marketing for free. All things being equal, that makes them a pretty good bet. Flow probably will have a far easier time getting PR than almost any other startup this year. Same goes for inbound CVs, follow on investment, and basically anything else that makes startups tick. So it's not that surprising that he can raise from an S Tier investor with a smile and a landing page that's literally just a logo.
mangecoeur 4y ago
Adam should write a book “how to fail upwards in silicon valley” What is infuriating is that there is so much great work done by great people on building strong resilient and affordable towns which are a pleasure to live and work in, but the easy VC money flows to the wierdo charlatans instead.

skywhopper 4y ago

This is really gross. Andreessen, who’s used his sway to stop any slight increase in housing density in his own town, talks about the broken housing system and how investing billions into a failed scammer will revolutionize housing in a way that’s completely unstated, but presumably involves attempting to find ways to collect rent from people who need housing while also putting all the capital risk onto those individuals as well. The worst thing we can do for housing is to give any credence to this company’s plans.

rvz 4y ago
Unfortunately, This scammer 'Adam Neumann' hasn't failed and still was able to exit out of WeWork with a ton of money. So he is not entirely a failed scammer and was able to get away with it and try again. An actual failed scammer is Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos.
- rexreed 4y ago
  I guess a distinction between a "successful" scammer (Adam Neumann) and an "unsuccessful" scammer (Elizabeth Holmes). Scammers alike but I guess different post-scam collapse treatment by the investment community. Makes you wonder about a lot of things.

bluelightning2k 4y ago

Next week on HN: Adam Neumann sells Flow trademark to Flow for 2 million.

bluelightning2k 4y ago

I think A16Z needs to invest more in character references

kweinber 4y ago
or an HBO Max account.
- bluelightning2k 4y ago
  Or a different type of character reference; a character count for the landing page which requires multiple paragraphs of information before confidently claiming to have solved shelter for all mankind.

bluelightning2k 4y ago

Adam Neumann is what happens when you put all your SPECIAL stats into charisma

dangerlibrary 4y ago
Need some in Endurance for Chem Resistant
- bluelightning2k 4y ago
  Nice! Although I think he dumped the rest into Luck right before he hi-rolled Softbank.

mdorazio 4y ago

Let me see if I got this right. Instead of a16z using its resources to actively push for YIMBY changes in society and politics that would actually have positive outcomes on the problems stated, it's investing in the next idea from the WeWork dream seller / scammer, and we don't even know what the venture is? Is this what the venture capital world has become in 2022?

mgfist 4y ago
For all their "American Dynamism" talk, Marc is just another classic rich NIMBY. source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/marc-andreessens-opposition-housing-project-nimby/671061/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/marc-andre...

rexreed 4y ago

I used to have a high opinion of venture capital, seeing them as tech visionaries and folks with access to deep pockets that fund the best technology that is truly changing the world. Maybe something has changed, but now all I see are just financial hustlers, working markets, trying to capture or corner spaces with "unicorns", looking for M&A activity that might have already been pre-negotiated looking for something to fill that spot, and weird market plays that never seemed to make sense financially (Web3? WeWork?). My perception now of VC is much like any other private equity play. They're in it for the financial hustle, and I don't feel that their "ideas" really hold much water. Why we look up to VCs as thought-leaders and visionaires when they are financial creatures beats me. While the top VC players may have earned the respect by themselves being visionary entrepreneurs (once, decades ago in many cases), the rest of the VC market is filled with also-ran investors who have never been practicing entrepreneurs, following markets like lemmings and looking for a relatively quick buck while not even understanding the markets they invest in. When I hear someone is an investor, especially if they're not one of the handful few of well-known investors, I just think to myself "banker". I don't know if it's always been like this, but it certainly feels like it's gotten worse.

RandomLensman 4y ago
Occasionally, VCs fund something that changes the world, but I don't think that is necessary (and maybe also not even strictly sufficient) to make money in that business.
Spooky23 4y ago
I think VCs reflect the market. Alot of the fundamental new things have been done already. So if you’re looking for new sources of huge returns, you’re looking for ways to do things differently vs inventing some new technology. The other thing is that you have more really rich people who control lots of money without a lot of governance.
takanori 4y ago
Andy Grove's response when John Doerr decided to leave intel for kleiner "Come on, don't you want to be a general manager and own a real P&L? I'll let you run Intel's software division. John, venture capital, that's not a real job. It's like being a real estate agent."

qlm 4y ago

Maybe the solution to the housing crisis is to build more affordable housing and to eliminate the practice of using housing as an investment / safe place to park money. Also, outlaw or heavily regulate Airbnb. I don't think another VC-funded app with cool branding is going to save us.

SwiftyBug 4y ago
Honest question: why are there so may Airbnbs? What's the advantage over traditional hotels / hostels? Are the prices significantly lower?
- ryanbrunner 4y ago
  They were definitely lower when AirBnB launched, although most of the difference is gone nowadays (might vary by locale). AirBnBs are also far more likely to have a fully equipped kitchen setup, separate rooms, and larger setups for families and groups, none of which are impossible with hotels but are definitely not very common. I do think AirBnB generates way too much negative externalities for the value it brings, but there is value in it for the consumer.
misiti3780 4y ago
I dont get why creating more housing means housing is no longer an investment. It's still an safe investment, it's not going to zero, just will not continue to be a great investment.

ctur 4y ago

Finally! A potential solution to the housing crisis. Newly VC-infused and rehabilitated Adam Neumann. Yes yes yes. The world needs more of this. This is also a good hedge against the crypto pyramid starting to slow down. Leveraging peoples' willingness to try to get rich quick to create a pyramid was profitable, but once people lost their money and crypto lost its luster, they wandered off and were no longer easy victims^Wcustomers... but imagine if VCs could also control your housing. Wandering off is so much harder! Built-in market protection. Brilliant.

thiscatis 4y ago

Fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, you’re a visionary Adam.

gargs 4y ago

> revolutionized the second largest asset class in the world — commercial real estate — by bringing community and brand to an industry in which neither existed before This sounds very disingenuous. Starbucks was arguably the first 'community brand' where people would associate one with an informal meeting place rather than to drink a coffee. Even in Silicon Valley, there are cafe chains renowned for this meeting vibe. And then there are country clubs, which are newer and more bourgeois. Even the neighborhood newspaper kiosk in historical European cities did a better job of bringing community and brand to real estate than WeWork.

foobarbecue 4y ago
Country clubs are a new thing? I'm legitimately curious -- I thought country clubs were a thing of the past. Are they having some kind of comeback?
- ryanbrunner 4y ago
  Maybe dependent on locale, but country clubs never really went anywhere. They tend to be more of an invaluable networking tool with more traditional professions vs tech, but my lawyer friends consider country club memberships to be more or less an essential part of doing business.

gregwebs 4y ago

It's notable that there are no references in this article. We actually have a 9 month supply of new housing now (which is a lot, that's up from a low of just a few months). Population growth in the US continues to go ever lower (but isn't going negative). Here is a nice data-driven video overview of this current economic situation and also about how this likely indicates a worsening recession ahead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6JBX8Y8XQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6JBX8Y8XQM It would be nice to see this data explored in a more localized way. I know there are excesses of new housing in some places and shortages in other places. I also don't know how much of the current excess housing supply is due to houses being built in less desirable locations.

AlexandrB 4y ago
Of course there are no references. The whole pitch is about vibes. Fun to see investor storytime being regurgitated by the investors in question with even fewer details than they probably got from Adam. Something like localized analysis of housing probably doesn't "scale" enough for a VC firm like a16z.

TradingPlaces 4y ago

I see a lot of confusion over why anyone would want to take a stake in an Adam Neumann biz. Some guesses… VCs are looking for return, and quickly, which is why they have glommed on to crypto projects. In the old model, you invest money, wait 5-10 years, and get a payoff when the company goes public or gets sold. With crypto, there is a much more immediate payoff with unregistered securities, AKA “tokens”. And then maybe a second payoff in 5-10 years. There are no details from a16z or Flow on what this actually is, but I am guessing tokenized rent payments on a blockchain in some fashion, promising some sort of equity to renters, and quick returns to a16z. They came out with a splashy investment and a high valuation, and are hoping to make their money back on the unregistered securities, AKA tokens, and who knows, maybe more in 5-10 years. Never underestimate the cynicism of a16z.

rchaud 4y ago
There are few industries as cynical as venture capital. They won't ever invest in projects explicitly designed for public welfare because "the economics don't work" or "the innovation isn't there". But they will invest eye-watering sums into financing student newspapers for the middle-aged (Substack) or 'turn your car into a public taxi' businesses, knowing that 90% of them won't amount to anything.
- badpun 4y ago
  > There are few industries as cynical as venture capital. They won't ever invest in projects explicitly designed for public welfare because "the economics don't work" As oposed to which industries exactly?
  - rchaud 4y ago
    "industry" wasn't the right word, as VCs don't produce anything. As investment philosophies go, it's very cynical.
- shaburn 4y ago
  8200+ points but you don't acknowledge the fact VCs are legally bound to invest LPs money for economic returns.

sethjr5rtfgh 4y ago

antiverse 4y ago

Just flag it, it's not worth the effort to get into this. For anyone not aware of the context, look into the recent NIMBY bullshit by Andreessen.

throwaway_4ever 4y ago
And if you want a TL;DR: Andreesen, who this article is written by, was himself trying and succeeding to get his own city council to axe housing development in his own neighborhood, causing the very problems he's writing about.

bmitc 4y ago

That's a lot of words to find out exactly zero about Flow and what it's doing, for which the buried link to the website also does nothing to explain. Also, it's kind of rich to hear a billionaire wax poetic about the woes of the real estate market. According to a quick search, he of no surprise owns several properties, including a $177 million property.

Ecstatify 4y ago

WeWork 2.0 - Elizabeth Homes Edition. The disclaimer at the end is nearly half the length of the post.

captainregex 4y ago

Easy for AH- they charge fees on the capital they deploy. Adam and his BS are ultimately the problem of your poor grandmother’s teaching pension getting invested in a noted charlatan.

buro9 4y ago

This is almost certainly going to be a rent-seeking venture that attempts to sell "freedom of movement" by having something that feels like student accommodation for adults and small families... a kind of shared living space that can be rented month-to-month with some perks like community spaces and services, pre-furnished, etc. To sell a lifestyle. Of course that comes at a cost, one that very few people can afford. At least, it will be unaffordable to most. It is always true that more people than one realises is actually awash with money (thanks to the prior generation benefiting from incredible growth of their assets) and for them this freedom of movement by renting on a rolling short-term basis and upping on a whim will allow them to further access high paying work. I'm really not sure that what housing needs is for large-scale VC money to be poured in (and the corresponding expectations of return on that). Will it be profitable? Yes. Is it ethical? No.

readonthegoapp 4y ago

I'll be curious to see what they come up with I guess this is where wework was headed before he got forced out I put together a simple site to try to develop the solution to at least one of the problems of apartment living -- loneliness https://myapartmentfamily.com/ https://myapartmentfamily.com/

NelsonMinar 4y ago
you might want to read the room here before promoting your adjacent idea.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Neumann and a16z suck, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing relevant ideas here.
foobarbecue 4y ago
Hey, seems like a cool idea! I've always lived in apartments and wished there was an easier way to meet people than relying on bumping into them in the hallways. Have you built anything yet? By the way, I noticed a typo -- "aprtment."
- readonthegoapp 4y ago
  thanks! and thanks for the typo note -- fixed. nothing built, other than the carrd.co website there. i kind of wanted to put something down 'on paper' to try to develop the idea a bit more myself, maybe show it around online here and there - at least see if i'm just a monster or if other folks have the same problem, etc. and it's def helped to put the site together - it's just allowed me to take the next step - think about: - how to contact people, - what types of friendships/relationships/apt-family people might be interested in making/creating, - how would we actually set up an initial meeting between future-apt-family members - is 'family' too strong a word/idea? part of my goal is to increase solidarity generally. - could / should these communities be able to evolve into something much more thna 'just' a family -- tenant union, buy the building/property, land/building-type trust stuff? i thought of 'competition' (co-opetition?) that already exists, things like: - apt communities doing 'pizza days' or whatever once a month - some communities have fakebook groups, etc. - some folks will actually meet around the building - parking garage, street, laundry room, dog park, walking around the hood, etc. - some folks will meet on Nextdoor and i didn't want to fall into the 'trap' of trying to build something online -- or mostly or only online. my natural inclination for a lot of things these days seems to be 'avoid doing this venture online because it will suck -- almost by definition'. that's a bit harsh, but just my take. some of my ideas, like a kb idea, it's online-only and that's fine/good. but when i think of 'online apt community', the closest thing i can think of right now is 'nextdoor' -- which... has always felt like a racist/classist cesspool to me, whenever i checked into it. just my take. so doing yet another online community like Nextdoor, or fakebook, just has an 'ick' factor for me. one buddy said his communities' 'pizza days' are all he has ever needed to make NEWFOREVERFRIENDS in whatever city he has ever been in, and that this MyAptFam idea is completely stupid or worse. and then i met a kid who said, during some discussion i wasn't even involved in, "i'm NEVER moving to another city where I don't know someone again."

Tao3300 4y ago

So how's Flowcarbon doing? Was that a good idea?

NelsonMinar 4y ago
I guess it is dead? FlowCarbon was Adam's idea last quarter, some sort of carbon credit / crypto currency confection. https://www.vox.com/recode/23142106/adam-neumann-crypto-carbon-credit-offset-flowcarbon https://www.vox.com/recode/23142106/adam-neumann-crypto-carb... https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/07/17/adam-neumanns-new-carbon-credit-crypto-startup-is/ https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/07/17/adam-neumanns-new-...
- Tao3300 4y ago
  Right. So the most charitable interpretation is that a16z is just throwing good money after bad at this point.

chirau 4y ago

Any predictions on what Flow actually does?

skinnymuch 4y ago
Coworking spaces automated by bots in your home!

djohnston 4y ago

> In a world where limited access to home ownership continues to be a driving force behind inequality and anxiety, giving renters a sense of security, community, and genuine ownership has transformative power for our society. To paraphrase, "we will continue hurling investment money into residential real estate to create a permanent serfdom of renters."

msoad 4y ago

My guess: A network of apartment complexes across the country that you can own equity in the entire enterprise instead of one single home. You can "freely" move between the apartments without having to go through financing etc. This can be interesting with a massive capital and enough time to build out the network but seeing this cocaine addict's name in the mix make me feel this is going to fail fast. Real estate is a slow industry, VC money doesn't have patient for it

s1k3 4y ago
Lot of people dunking on Neumann here. But the space is very interesting and certainly there is a market need. No one seems to understand that Neumann built a massively successful company, because they watch the documentaries and think he’s a scumbag for failing to deliver an IPO.
- mtalantikite 4y ago
  I don't know, taking $22 billion to make a company worth $4 billion doesn't seem that impressive. It's just office space at the end of the day, what's so interesting about that? He just was able to grift his way into a fortune is what I see as the impressive part.
- cma 4y ago
  Wasn't he the guy that had the company license the trademark from himself privately, lease his own privately held properties and stuff? It was all very close to embezzlement if I'm remembering the right company.
  - dpflan 4y ago
    Speculation: I feel like that’s some of underlying value for the valuation, real estate, most likely owned by this known self-dealer.

smeeth 4y ago

I am surprised to see so many negative responses. I bet most of the people here agree 100% with the problems and structural shifts this memo identified, and that technological innovation in the housing space to facilitate both social cohesion and affordability would be a *very good thing*. Sure, Adam had some highly publicized issues at WeWork. Also, a16z is on a lot of people's shit list right now. Still, why do so few people seem to be rooting for their success? If you're prone to cynicism I get it - the only way this can end is grift - but personally I would like to see more companies trying to address these issues and Adam seems like he genuinely cares about it. Maybe a little too much, even.

phphphphp 4y ago
The problem is that you can be a well meaning person, take a bunch of capital and unintentionally cause huge problems. Look at Airbnb, for example, which is causing havoc in the rental markets of major and minor cities across the globe. Airbnb certainly didn’t set out to cause harm, and I’m sure the founders would actively argue to this day that what they’ve done is for the greater good… same with Uber. If you accept that the markets are inherently good and the most profitable outcome is the best outcome, then it’s easy enough to look at this as a positive move… but if you see capital + technology as a force for bad when unchecked, this is just more of the same — success for Flow could come at the expense of others. Adam’s history is one of not caring about rules or expectations, he caused significant financial harm to a lot of people with WeWork and while I am not particularly cynical about Flow, I think the cynicism from others deserves more credit — it’s not just contrarianism, the housing market is very vulnerable (see all the private equity that pushed up American house prices recently).
bko 4y ago
A lot of the negativity comes from the fact that Adam Neumann is involved. He's incredibly dishonest and a borderline scam artist. He set fire to billions and came out incredibly wealthy. You may not care about the people he took money from, but what he did was still wrong. Another point is that there is no concrete business or idea. The memo at least doesn't explain the actual business. It's vaporware. There are thousands of people with track records that want to open real cashflow businesses and can't get funding. And then there's someone like this that can manifest billion dollar companies with an idea. It just strikes them as unfair.

monkey_monkey 4y ago

So did Adam buy a bunch of houses and apartments at peak valuations which he'll generously be offering to sell to Flow for a very modest profit?

monkaiju 4y ago

Housing is absolutely not an issue that more consolidation and VC money can fix. Watching the US just nosedive right into becoming a renter society and giving up on the prospect of ownership is pretty wild...

abeppu 4y ago

I think not everything needs a venture-backed, take-over-the-world solution. For the issues being raised here (home ownership is inaccessible to many, renters don't have stability, security), aside from greater protections for renters, another class of existing solution is Community Land Trusts. These organizations retain ownership of the land, have a charter that's targeted at keeping housing affordable (or some related mission), lease out land on very long terms (like 99 years) with contracts that place limitations on resale of any improvements on the land. These restrictions can make housing permanently affordable, and removes housing on that land from being an asset for speculation. Residents get security from the very long terms of their loans, the governance of their CLT, and ownership of improvements on the land. The CLT can use revenue to create and maintain community amenities. Sometimes good arrangements already exist, but they're not going to be rapidly scaled up across the country because no investor stands to get a windfall from rapid expansion.

qlm 4y ago
It's sickening. These people don't care about improving people's living conditions. They care about extracting more and more and more money by exploiting a crisis that they have had a hand in creating.
- xcom86 4y ago
  Status quo is not ideal and I don't trust the government to do what is necessary to alleviate the situation. Let's see if innovation, driven by greed, can change it.
  - shaburn 4y ago
    Regulation just pushed the largest mortgage lender out of the market : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-14/wells-fargo-to-cut-back-mortgage-business-after-scandals-take-toll?srnd=premium https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-14/wells-far...
    - Geeek 4y ago

rzazueta 4y ago

solumos 4y ago
Say what you will about Adam Neumann, but he didn't commit fraud
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bpt3 4y ago
  Please explain.
- neilk 4y ago
  Neumann bought ownership stakes in properties which he then leased to WeWork. I don’t know if this meets the legal definition of fraud but it’s absurdly shady, a clear conflict of interest. https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/16/we-company-ceo-in-hot-water-over-being-both-a-tenant-and-a-landlord/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/16/we-company-ceo-in-hot-wate...
  - benjaminwootton 4y ago
    Fraud: “wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.” Not sure that fits as I assume it was both legal and didn’t involve any deception.
    - solumos 4y ago
      If it were illegal or did involve deception, surely his investors would have pursued legal action rather than giving him a golden parachute.
    - wittycardio 4y ago
      I'm going to guess you're big on crypto too yeah ?

mtalantikite 4y ago

> The second model: you rent an apartment, but: it’s a soulless experience; do you even meet your neighbors, much less have any friends in your complex? Does it feel like home, or just a place to sleep? Are you proud to bring friends and family to visit, or hesitant? Excuse me, what? I've absolutely met my neighbors. In past buildings in Brooklyn I've gone out to dinner with some, spent hours on the stoop having conversations with others, taken care of their kids while they ran an errand, and had all sorts of positive (and negative) experiences with them. That's what living in apartments in a dense city community is like. People come hang out in my place all the time. It's hard to even comment on what they're proposing, since there are no details, but the last thing we need is more single family homes and corporate landlords.

mpalmer 4y ago
I guess the only frame of reference this set of VC/founders have to go on is the last time they rented before becoming millionaires.
iancmceachern 4y ago
This is so classist (not your comment but op). To imply that folks who don't own their home shouldn't/couldn't be "proud" to bring their loved ones there. Are you kidding me? Entire generations, communities, families have lived and died in rental housing. Entire swaths of the population. This shows very little respect for them.
- mtalantikite 4y ago
  Absolutely. My mom grew up in a predominately working class Irish public housing complex that my grandmother lived in for almost her entire adult life. It was small, but 5 kids grew up there, and when they had their own kids, we'd go over every Sunday for dinner. Not once did anyone feel ashamed to have all the extended Irish family over in that small apartment. It always amazes me how people that know so little about the world try to tell the rest of us how we should live or feel.
- UncleMeat 4y ago

twalla 4y ago

tl;dr it's wework but for residential real estate... nobody asked for this, it sounds awful and fuck adam neumann