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I find myself somewhat agreeing with the general sentiment of your final paragraph. But "I think it's about time we standardized it" is really rubbing me the wr

by gaelian 15y ago

I find myself somewhat agreeing with the general sentiment of your final paragraph. But "I think it's about time we standardized it" is really rubbing me the wrong way (honestly, not pun initially intended). Either you don't mean that how it sounds or you are massively underestimating the variety of sexual activities that humans engage in and enjoy. Just with the examples you give (common erogenous zones, sensing feedback, appropriate pressure) there are massive differences between what one person might find enjoyable compared to another. Can you expand on what you would have in mind?

philwelch 15y ago
The fully generalizable things you can teach would be communication, consent, and respect. But really, a standardized curriculum for sex sounds kind of weird. People would think they're dirty perverts for coming up with something that isn't in the standardized curriculum.
- gaelian 15y ago
  > The fully generalizable things you can teach would be communication, consent, and respect. Agreed. But this is rather a different kettle of fish to what it appears the grandparent comment was suggesting. > People would think they're dirty perverts for coming up with something that isn't in the standardized curriculum. Exactly my concern. There's enough of this going on already without unwittingly enshrining it in some form of sanctioned sex education curriculum.
akmiller 15y ago
I think it's less about pure education and more about a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication. As you suggest it's a very complex subject with many questions having no generally applicable answers. However, being able to discuss such things between the sexes and with some mature guidance can remove a lot of humility and hopefully provide at least a little enlightenment. That being said, I'm not entirely sure where this discussion should take place (i.e. is school the right place, I don't know).
- gaelian 15y ago
  Very much agreed. But I also think we're looking at the problem in a somewhat more isolated context than would be required to effect true improvement. By which I mean, if we are to achieve a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication about sex that includes some mature guidance, then a more systemic change in English speaking society as a whole is required. So rather than changes being effected at school, or at home, or somewhere else, I would suggest that change is needed at school and at home and in a wider sense across society. Looking to existing attitudes and models in Europe might be a good starting point. Because what they do (especially the Scandinavians) works a hell of a lot better than what we do ("we" being English speaking people in general terms).
  - sn 15y ago
    Do you have specific examples?
    - gaelian 15y ago
      Here's a couple of articles on the Netherlands and Sweden: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm The original link of this thread, which talks about the sex ed classes of a Mr Al Vernacchio, does strike me as a pretty detailed example of the kind of model that some European countries are practicing. And I'll finish with another example from my own experience that illustrates the wider difference in attitude that I alluded to: I visited Germany about 6 or so years ago. One day we went to an area near Potsdam, I think it was Wannsee. This area has a lot of beautiful old architecture and park land and people can swim in some of these parks because they back onto a lake but this area is still very much a developed part of the Berlin/Potsdam area. We went there with a small group of people, got lake-side and people started taking their clothes off to swim naked in the lake. This was a group of male and female people, almost none of which were in any kind of intimate relationship with each other. And in the middle of the day, with streets nearby and many people walking around the park and surrounding area. It wasn't specifically designated as a nude swimming area, it was just a swimming area and some people swam nude, some didn't and neither caused any issues for anyone. This is one example that I noticed while in Europe but there were more of these situations where nudity or sex were treated in just a very mature and reasonable way. Not as something that should be shunned and feared out of some kind of puritan obsession with the subject; which in its self I think is fuelled by deeply unsatisfied sexual desires.

by gaelian 15y ago

philwelch 15y ago

The fully generalizable things you can teach would be communication, consent, and respect. But really, a standardized curriculum for sex sounds kind of weird. People would think they're dirty perverts for coming up with something that isn't in the standardized curriculum.

gaelian 15y ago
> The fully generalizable things you can teach would be communication, consent, and respect. Agreed. But this is rather a different kettle of fish to what it appears the grandparent comment was suggesting. > People would think they're dirty perverts for coming up with something that isn't in the standardized curriculum. Exactly my concern. There's enough of this going on already without unwittingly enshrining it in some form of sanctioned sex education curriculum.

akmiller 15y ago

I think it's less about pure education and more about a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication. As you suggest it's a very complex subject with many questions having no generally applicable answers. However, being able to discuss such things between the sexes and with some mature guidance can remove a lot of humility and hopefully provide at least a little enlightenment. That being said, I'm not entirely sure where this discussion should take place (i.e. is school the right place, I don't know).

gaelian 15y ago
Very much agreed. But I also think we're looking at the problem in a somewhat more isolated context than would be required to effect true improvement. By which I mean, if we are to achieve a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication about sex that includes some mature guidance, then a more systemic change in English speaking society as a whole is required. So rather than changes being effected at school, or at home, or somewhere else, I would suggest that change is needed at school and at home and in a wider sense across society. Looking to existing attitudes and models in Europe might be a good starting point. Because what they do (especially the Scandinavians) works a hell of a lot better than what we do ("we" being English speaking people in general terms).
- sn 15y ago
  Do you have specific examples?
  - gaelian 15y ago
    Here's a couple of articles on the Netherlands and Sweden: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm The original link of this thread, which talks about the sex ed classes of a Mr Al Vernacchio, does strike me as a pretty detailed example of the kind of model that some European countries are practicing. And I'll finish with another example from my own experience that illustrates the wider difference in attitude that I alluded to: I visited Germany about 6 or so years ago. One day we went to an area near Potsdam, I think it was Wannsee. This area has a lot of beautiful old architecture and park land and people can swim in some of these parks because they back onto a lake but this area is still very much a developed part of the Berlin/Potsdam area. We went there with a small group of people, got lake-side and people started taking their clothes off to swim naked in the lake. This was a group of male and female people, almost none of which were in any kind of intimate relationship with each other. And in the middle of the day, with streets nearby and many people walking around the park and surrounding area. It wasn't specifically designated as a nude swimming area, it was just a swimming area and some people swam nude, some didn't and neither caused any issues for anyone. This is one example that I noticed while in Europe but there were more of these situations where nudity or sex were treated in just a very mature and reasonable way. Not as something that should be shunned and feared out of some kind of puritan obsession with the subject; which in its self I think is fuelled by deeply unsatisfied sexual desires.