6 ms·

So, you need a job? Man, do resumes suck

28 points by qhoxie 18y ago

nazgulnarsil 18y ago
I'd say a well written cover letter adapted to fit the company you are applying for is more important than the resume itself. a good cover letter gets the employer curious about you.
ajkirwin 18y ago
"7. Apply for a job for which you are clearly overqualified for (I got one resume from a software engineer)." This is something that I hate. I know many people who are in this situation. They're highly qualified, but due to too many people in that field for a local area, or in general, they just can't find work in it. So to tide themselves over until they CAN get one, they look for a much more simpler job. Only to get told, time and time again, they are 'overqualified'. Why is this such a bad thing?
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  the employer in these situations feels that the person will be unhappy at a position so obviously beneath them. the employer can also assume that the person will be leaving as soon as they do find a job they're qualified for. unhappy employee who could leave any time. doesn't sound good to me.
  - ajkirwin 18y ago
    Yes, but this is surely the kind of thing that you resolve in an interview. Maybe this person could be quite happy in this position. Maybe they're looking to broaden their horizons. You just don't know.
    - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
      as an HR director, i'd have "yes", "no", and "maybe" stacks of applications. If my "yes" pile is big enough, I'm throwing out the "maybe" pile. Don't make the mistake of thinking a resumes' job is to accurately represent you to prospective employers. Your resume is an advertising brochure that should be tailored to fit each position you apply for.
      - denglish 18y ago
        I agree with tailor, but it still needs to "accurately represent" - there really isn't any point getting to an interview you shouldn't be at. Just waists everyone's time.
        nazgulnarsil 18y ago
        sure, but the average hacker is smart enough to do most jobs, including ones they aren't technically qualified for. It has been my experience that most of the skills vital to any particular job will be learned on-site anyway. Experience is just shorthand for "are you basically competent?".
        lief79 18y ago
        True to a point and possibly for the majority of jobs, provided that you aren't trying to bill yourself as a consultant (expert in whatever technology). I'm also assuming that the "average hacker" implies that you are eliminating everyone who claims to be one, but is not even close from the list of hackers, in order to greatly improve the average. (The average "successful" hacker.) Now, even with the higher standard, the learning curve depends greatly on the complexity of the system and how much of a learning curve is permitted by the employer. If you are trying to work with a full J2EE system, and you haven't done it before, expect a steep 2-3 month learning curve, even if you are proficient in java. If they need someone to be productive within that first week, the average hacker won't be able to make it. There is just too much complexity and too many libraries to memorize in less time then that. I spent a good month or two learning the EJB 2.2 frameworks, Servlets, JSPs, javascript, etc at my last job. This job had a very steep 1 month learning curve with a modern Seam, Richfaces, JSF environment. I'd add on another month or two for anyone that doesn't already understand the core of the j2EE/web application stack. This small team has had people that haven't been able to pull it off. Now for the extreme example, my father has worked developing the base station for a satellite telephone system. He's commented on how half of the people brought in to help him got lost in the complexity and provided next to no additional productivity. I've also dabbled in pharmaceutical automation and in the telecommunication networks. Very steep learning curves in regulations and the complexities associated in both fields. In summary, competence often requires a lot more then just raw coding ability. Very few people can slide into a job under the radar and properly complete very hard problems where they don't have the expected domain knowledge. *Reviewing this, it's not really a direct response to what was said in the above thread. I was reading into the response too much.
- fendale 18y ago
  Being that for any job, you are supposed to tailor your CV to the position, is that not the time to omit the section that mentions your Engineering degree and relevant work experience if you know you are going to be over qualified? I guess its not really ethical to do that, and may even be illegal, but its not as bad IMHO as inventing qualifications and experience you don't have which is a definite no no!
KiwiNige 18y ago
"1. Include only an attachment and don’t write anything in the body of the email." "5. Include only a resume and don’t explain why you think you are qualified for the job (believe it or not, a well written letter puts you to the top 20% pretty quickly)." I've found in the past that doing these are the best way to get short listed by an agent. I figure either they don't like reading them, or my cover letters really suck.
truebosko 18y ago
I'm curious .. what makes a good resume for a developer (in other words, a hacker) ? I've had one job in my field since out of college (same one since I finished) and I've learnt a lot but I have no clue how to really portray it all in my resume. If I am applying for a development position do you think the hiree will care that I have experience with SEO, building brands, etc? How does one portray it? Are cover letters that important for a development position? And so on.. I've had a tough time finding well written articles on this subject but Scoble has made some definite good points, now I'm more intrigued
- comatose_kid 18y ago
  A website full of cool things you've built.
  - truebosko 18y ago
    What would persuade the hiree to actually go to that website?
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      It would work for me.
- ig1 18y ago
  send me a list of questions an I'll write a blog post answering them :-) (I'm the author of http://imranontech.com/ http://imranontech.com/ and am creating a developer recruitment startup)
jrockway 18y ago
Why is he being so demanding for such a low-paying job? I made this much money being a janitor when I was in high school.
- dgabriel 18y ago
  Supply and demand. He said he received 90 resumes.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    He said he received 90 resumes. From people that can't spell.
gruseom 18y ago
Resumes, cover letters, and the lot of it are overrated. I've gotten nearly all of my work through word-of-mouth and the same is true of most good programmers I know. The way to do this is a lot more congenial to good hackers than the resume/interview circuit: make friends with the kind of people you'd like to work with, work on personal and/or open source projects, hone your skills. You'll build a reputation among your local tech community and (eventually) hear about good jobs from good people. Most such jobs never get posted in the first place because they're filled the way I'm describing.
- lief79 18y ago
  The problem is that you need to find a way to work with these people in the first place. My first two jobs were through random contacts ( a relative and someone I met while swing dancing). The next two were through dedicated recruiters on Monster. I suspect I'll be able to use professional contacts or one of the better recruiters that I know the next time I'm looking, but up to this point, they haven't panned out.
edw519 18y ago
Alas, I have never found a way to write a resume that even remotely comes close to properly describing me. OTOH, every piece of software I have ever written says volumes about me. Therefore... Screw job hunting, write some software, start a company and sell that software. What a concept.
gruseom 18y ago
2. Include a misspelling. 7. Apply for a job for which you are clearly overqualified for I guess what he means is "prove that you can turn a spell-checker on".
- tjr 18y ago
  I once applied for a job, and was rejected with a letter listing reasons why they typically reject applicants. This list included grammatical and spelling errors on one's letter or resume. Ironically, the company's rejection letter itself contained both a grammatical and spelling error. Having already been rejected, I decided to write back to them and point this out. I guess they were in some way impressed, as they wrote back to me asking if I'd be interested in a job, but by this time I wasn't.
  - Hexstream 18y ago
    You're lucky, when I take time to point out spelling errors I usually get ignored in a more or less hostile way.
helveticaman 18y ago
So far I’ve received more than 90 resumes for a job that’ll pay $12 to $15 (not much, I know, but for a starter job not too bad — my first job back in 1993 paid $10 an hour and this one should be a good launch to a fun career in journalism or PR or any number of jobs). Heard of inflation, Scoble?
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
So -- another "this is what I'm looking for in a resume" posts, eh? Nothing wrong with that, except there are hundreds of thousands of guys out there with their own lists of stuff they want. The art of writing a resume is the art of creating a targeted sales brochure to the exact person who is able to call you in for an interview. That means, between you and him, you have to understand at a gut level what makes his boat float and what are going to be key selling factors for him. It's an acquired skill, but not too hard to learn. The interesting part is that not only do you have to target each opportunity, you also have to go through a certain number of opportunities per day/week to make the machine work. I find it fun once I get used to it. Of course, as I get older it's all word-of-mouth now.
- edw519 18y ago
  That means, between you and him, you have to... And let's not forget that between you and him may also be numerous gatekeepers and headhunters.
blurry 18y ago
Does anyone else find the post incredibly disrespectful? So to merely have a chance at $12/hour one should include a customized video and pay a professional editor to go over the cover letter (presumably one of many since we are also instructed to make sure and customize each application)? Seriously? Mr. Scoble's sense of entitlement is staggering. Just because you can lord it over people who find themselves unemployed in a bad economy doesn't mean you should. In the very least he should refrain from making fun of over-qualified candidates. That's just unnecessary.
- dasil003 18y ago
  Scoble is out of touch. The only thing he knows anything about is blogging. I've never found anything he writes to be particularly insightful either, he just spends all his time writing about popular tech topics. He deserves credit for building his personal brand, but that's about it. I certainly wouldn't take resume-writing advice from him, and I wouldn't want to work for him either. He needs to dial down the self-importance.
- listic 18y ago
  I too find this man unnecessary finicky. But why has this post got so many upvotes here on Hacker News?

28 points by qhoxie 18y ago

I'd say a well written cover letter adapted to fit the company you are applying for is more important than the resume itself. a good cover letter gets the employer curious about you.

ajkirwin 18y ago

"7. Apply for a job for which you are clearly overqualified for (I got one resume from a software engineer)." This is something that I hate. I know many people who are in this situation. They're highly qualified, but due to too many people in that field for a local area, or in general, they just can't find work in it. So to tide themselves over until they CAN get one, they look for a much more simpler job. Only to get told, time and time again, they are 'overqualified'. Why is this such a bad thing?

nazgulnarsil 18y ago
the employer in these situations feels that the person will be unhappy at a position so obviously beneath them. the employer can also assume that the person will be leaving as soon as they do find a job they're qualified for. unhappy employee who could leave any time. doesn't sound good to me.
- ajkirwin 18y ago
  Yes, but this is surely the kind of thing that you resolve in an interview. Maybe this person could be quite happy in this position. Maybe they're looking to broaden their horizons. You just don't know.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    as an HR director, i'd have "yes", "no", and "maybe" stacks of applications. If my "yes" pile is big enough, I'm throwing out the "maybe" pile. Don't make the mistake of thinking a resumes' job is to accurately represent you to prospective employers. Your resume is an advertising brochure that should be tailored to fit each position you apply for.
    - denglish 18y ago
      I agree with tailor, but it still needs to "accurately represent" - there really isn't any point getting to an interview you shouldn't be at. Just waists everyone's time.
      - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
        sure, but the average hacker is smart enough to do most jobs, including ones they aren't technically qualified for. It has been my experience that most of the skills vital to any particular job will be learned on-site anyway. Experience is just shorthand for "are you basically competent?".
        lief79 18y ago
        True to a point and possibly for the majority of jobs, provided that you aren't trying to bill yourself as a consultant (expert in whatever technology). I'm also assuming that the "average hacker" implies that you are eliminating everyone who claims to be one, but is not even close from the list of hackers, in order to greatly improve the average. (The average "successful" hacker.) Now, even with the higher standard, the learning curve depends greatly on the complexity of the system and how much of a learning curve is permitted by the employer. If you are trying to work with a full J2EE system, and you haven't done it before, expect a steep 2-3 month learning curve, even if you are proficient in java. If they need someone to be productive within that first week, the average hacker won't be able to make it. There is just too much complexity and too many libraries to memorize in less time then that. I spent a good month or two learning the EJB 2.2 frameworks, Servlets, JSPs, javascript, etc at my last job. This job had a very steep 1 month learning curve with a modern Seam, Richfaces, JSF environment. I'd add on another month or two for anyone that doesn't already understand the core of the j2EE/web application stack. This small team has had people that haven't been able to pull it off. Now for the extreme example, my father has worked developing the base station for a satellite telephone system. He's commented on how half of the people brought in to help him got lost in the complexity and provided next to no additional productivity. I've also dabbled in pharmaceutical automation and in the telecommunication networks. Very steep learning curves in regulations and the complexities associated in both fields. In summary, competence often requires a lot more then just raw coding ability. Very few people can slide into a job under the radar and properly complete very hard problems where they don't have the expected domain knowledge. *Reviewing this, it's not really a direct response to what was said in the above thread. I was reading into the response too much.
fendale 18y ago
Being that for any job, you are supposed to tailor your CV to the position, is that not the time to omit the section that mentions your Engineering degree and relevant work experience if you know you are going to be over qualified? I guess its not really ethical to do that, and may even be illegal, but its not as bad IMHO as inventing qualifications and experience you don't have which is a definite no no!

KiwiNige 18y ago

"1. Include only an attachment and don’t write anything in the body of the email." "5. Include only a resume and don’t explain why you think you are qualified for the job (believe it or not, a well written letter puts you to the top 20% pretty quickly)." I've found in the past that doing these are the best way to get short listed by an agent. I figure either they don't like reading them, or my cover letters really suck.

truebosko 18y ago

I'm curious .. what makes a good resume for a developer (in other words, a hacker) ? I've had one job in my field since out of college (same one since I finished) and I've learnt a lot but I have no clue how to really portray it all in my resume. If I am applying for a development position do you think the hiree will care that I have experience with SEO, building brands, etc? How does one portray it? Are cover letters that important for a development position? And so on.. I've had a tough time finding well written articles on this subject but Scoble has made some definite good points, now I'm more intrigued

comatose_kid 18y ago
A website full of cool things you've built.
- truebosko 18y ago
  What would persuade the hiree to actually go to that website?
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    It would work for me.
ig1 18y ago
send me a list of questions an I'll write a blog post answering them :-) (I'm the author of http://imranontech.com/ http://imranontech.com/ and am creating a developer recruitment startup)

jrockway 18y ago

Why is he being so demanding for such a low-paying job? I made this much money being a janitor when I was in high school.

dgabriel 18y ago
Supply and demand. He said he received 90 resumes.
- jrockway 18y ago
  He said he received 90 resumes. From people that can't spell.

gruseom 18y ago

Resumes, cover letters, and the lot of it are overrated. I've gotten nearly all of my work through word-of-mouth and the same is true of most good programmers I know. The way to do this is a lot more congenial to good hackers than the resume/interview circuit: make friends with the kind of people you'd like to work with, work on personal and/or open source projects, hone your skills. You'll build a reputation among your local tech community and (eventually) hear about good jobs from good people. Most such jobs never get posted in the first place because they're filled the way I'm describing.

lief79 18y ago
The problem is that you need to find a way to work with these people in the first place. My first two jobs were through random contacts ( a relative and someone I met while swing dancing). The next two were through dedicated recruiters on Monster. I suspect I'll be able to use professional contacts or one of the better recruiters that I know the next time I'm looking, but up to this point, they haven't panned out.

edw519 18y ago

Alas, I have never found a way to write a resume that even remotely comes close to properly describing me. OTOH, every piece of software I have ever written says volumes about me. Therefore... Screw job hunting, write some software, start a company and sell that software. What a concept.

gruseom 18y ago

2. Include a misspelling. 7. Apply for a job for which you are clearly overqualified for I guess what he means is "prove that you can turn a spell-checker on".

tjr 18y ago
I once applied for a job, and was rejected with a letter listing reasons why they typically reject applicants. This list included grammatical and spelling errors on one's letter or resume. Ironically, the company's rejection letter itself contained both a grammatical and spelling error. Having already been rejected, I decided to write back to them and point this out. I guess they were in some way impressed, as they wrote back to me asking if I'd be interested in a job, but by this time I wasn't.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  You're lucky, when I take time to point out spelling errors I usually get ignored in a more or less hostile way.

helveticaman 18y ago

So far I’ve received more than 90 resumes for a job that’ll pay $12 to $15 (not much, I know, but for a starter job not too bad — my first job back in 1993 paid $10 an hour and this one should be a good launch to a fun career in journalism or PR or any number of jobs). Heard of inflation, Scoble?

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

So -- another "this is what I'm looking for in a resume" posts, eh? Nothing wrong with that, except there are hundreds of thousands of guys out there with their own lists of stuff they want. The art of writing a resume is the art of creating a targeted sales brochure to the exact person who is able to call you in for an interview. That means, between you and him, you have to understand at a gut level what makes his boat float and what are going to be key selling factors for him. It's an acquired skill, but not too hard to learn. The interesting part is that not only do you have to target each opportunity, you also have to go through a certain number of opportunities per day/week to make the machine work. I find it fun once I get used to it. Of course, as I get older it's all word-of-mouth now.

edw519 18y ago
That means, between you and him, you have to... And let's not forget that between you and him may also be numerous gatekeepers and headhunters.

blurry 18y ago

Does anyone else find the post incredibly disrespectful? So to merely have a chance at $12/hour one should include a customized video and pay a professional editor to go over the cover letter (presumably one of many since we are also instructed to make sure and customize each application)? Seriously? Mr. Scoble's sense of entitlement is staggering. Just because you can lord it over people who find themselves unemployed in a bad economy doesn't mean you should. In the very least he should refrain from making fun of over-qualified candidates. That's just unnecessary.

dasil003 18y ago
Scoble is out of touch. The only thing he knows anything about is blogging. I've never found anything he writes to be particularly insightful either, he just spends all his time writing about popular tech topics. He deserves credit for building his personal brand, but that's about it. I certainly wouldn't take resume-writing advice from him, and I wouldn't want to work for him either. He needs to dial down the self-importance.
listic 18y ago
I too find this man unnecessary finicky. But why has this post got so many upvotes here on Hacker News?