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> Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it To be pedantic: It used to be first language in many areas, but since at l

> Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it To be pedantic: It used to be first language in many areas, but since at least WW2 it is exclusively a second language. It wasn't Italian as much as Venetian, which is quite a distinct Italian dialect. During most of the history Italy didn't even exist, and the eastern Adriatic coast was exclusively influenced by the Republic of Venice. Most people don't realise how new Italy is as a single nation.

binarray2000 4y ago
Using your logic ("During most of the history Italy didn't even exist"), the same can be said about Croatia. The two times Croatia for sure has existed in history was (1) from 1941 to 1945 [0] - as a Nazi-supported and -supporting country, committing crimes against Christian-Orthodox Serbs, Jews and Romani people with support of the Roman-Catholic Church and Nazi-Germany/Austria [1] and (2) from 1991 into the present - when that state (with the help of Germany, Austria and RCC) was re-awakened to finish the job of pushing Christian-Orthodoxy and the Serbs away from the Adriatic sea and toward East [2]. Every other claim that Croatia has existed prior to 1941 is just a fantasy. The "List of rulers of Croatia" is such an example [3]. The heading "Under the Habsburgs (1527–1918)" is in the category ROTFL. They are ALL Germans but your people seriously write they were "Croatian rulers"! Next heading ("Kings of Yugoslavia (1918–1941)") is even more hilarious: There, Croatian editors list three rulers, ALL of which were Christian-Orthodox Serbs! That LITTLE fact is not mentioned in the article. One of them was "Assassinated by the VMRO with Ustaše support in 1934." Ustaše are Croatian terrorist organisation that has later led the first Croatian state from 1941 until 1945. But, hey, he is a "Croatian ruler"! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia
- partly_sane 4y ago
  Dude, chill. I've been lurking HN for 15 years, and you made me create an account just to respond to this. Comments like these are the reason why everyone thinks we are a bunch of crazy ultra-nationalists. OP said nothing about Croatian state, or rulers, or church or anything. Do you just cruse the internet and start spewing random Ustase fact every time the word Croatia pops up? Even if there was anything objectionable in what was said there are way less unhinged ways to respond. We are all victims of selective and glorified history taught in our schools (plus a steady diet of hatred-filled media) and through normal dialog we can all learn more about each other's perspectives.
  - binarray2000 4y ago
    Welcome to HN as a commentator! Where is "ultra-nationalism" in my two comments here? Or which "random facts'"? I quote English Wikipedia and these entries were edited by Croats. That one link with the list of "croatian" rulers is identical to the same entry in croatian Wikipedia. OP was "pedantic" and has claimed something that was plain wrong. And using his logic, I was pedantic as well - to set the record straight and provide background info. The alternative is to let Croats claim whatever you want while betting on ignorance and lack of knowledge of others.
- kungito 4y ago
  Duchy of Croatia [1] and then Kingdom of Croatia [2]. Every sane Croatian agrees that NDH was a disgraceful puppet state but what you are saying about modern Croatia is some crazy extremist speak which doesn't belong here. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%80%931102) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%8...
  - binarray2000 4y ago
    Thank you for these two links. And for, in a sense, confirming me: maps shown in those entries of "duchy/kingdom of Croatia" depict a territory of most of Dalmatia, parts of western Herzegovina and Bosnia. That is it! Istria, Slavonia, today's capital Zagreb (Agram on the map) and everything north of it is not part of that duchy/kingdom. According to the entries you have posted. Do you suggest that these regions they are actually not croatian?

binarray2000 4y ago

Using your logic ("During most of the history Italy didn't even exist"), the same can be said about Croatia. The two times Croatia for sure has existed in history was (1) from 1941 to 1945 [0] - as a Nazi-supported and -supporting country, committing crimes against Christian-Orthodox Serbs, Jews and Romani people with support of the Roman-Catholic Church and Nazi-Germany/Austria [1] and (2) from 1991 into the present - when that state (with the help of Germany, Austria and RCC) was re-awakened to finish the job of pushing Christian-Orthodoxy and the Serbs away from the Adriatic sea and toward East [2]. Every other claim that Croatia has existed prior to 1941 is just a fantasy. The "List of rulers of Croatia" is such an example [3]. The heading "Under the Habsburgs (1527–1918)" is in the category ROTFL. They are ALL Germans but your people seriously write they were "Croatian rulers"! Next heading ("Kings of Yugoslavia (1918–1941)") is even more hilarious: There, Croatian editors list three rulers, ALL of which were Christian-Orthodox Serbs! That LITTLE fact is not mentioned in the article. One of them was "Assassinated by the VMRO with Ustaše support in 1934." Ustaše are Croatian terrorist organisation that has later led the first Croatian state from 1941 until 1945. But, hey, he is a "Croatian ruler"! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia

partly_sane 4y ago
Dude, chill. I've been lurking HN for 15 years, and you made me create an account just to respond to this. Comments like these are the reason why everyone thinks we are a bunch of crazy ultra-nationalists. OP said nothing about Croatian state, or rulers, or church or anything. Do you just cruse the internet and start spewing random Ustase fact every time the word Croatia pops up? Even if there was anything objectionable in what was said there are way less unhinged ways to respond. We are all victims of selective and glorified history taught in our schools (plus a steady diet of hatred-filled media) and through normal dialog we can all learn more about each other's perspectives.
- binarray2000 4y ago
  Welcome to HN as a commentator! Where is "ultra-nationalism" in my two comments here? Or which "random facts'"? I quote English Wikipedia and these entries were edited by Croats. That one link with the list of "croatian" rulers is identical to the same entry in croatian Wikipedia. OP was "pedantic" and has claimed something that was plain wrong. And using his logic, I was pedantic as well - to set the record straight and provide background info. The alternative is to let Croats claim whatever you want while betting on ignorance and lack of knowledge of others.
kungito 4y ago
Duchy of Croatia [1] and then Kingdom of Croatia [2]. Every sane Croatian agrees that NDH was a disgraceful puppet state but what you are saying about modern Croatia is some crazy extremist speak which doesn't belong here. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Croatia [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%80%931102) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%8...
- binarray2000 4y ago
  Thank you for these two links. And for, in a sense, confirming me: maps shown in those entries of "duchy/kingdom of Croatia" depict a territory of most of Dalmatia, parts of western Herzegovina and Bosnia. That is it! Istria, Slavonia, today's capital Zagreb (Agram on the map) and everything north of it is not part of that duchy/kingdom. According to the entries you have posted. Do you suggest that these regions they are actually not croatian?