7 ms·

Relevant meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2002287-wikihow https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2002287-wikihow A list of claims that are likely to see some kin

Relevant meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2002287-wikihow https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2002287-wikihow A list of claims that are likely to see some kind of quiet semi-official recognition over the next five years: 1. COVID vaccines can injure and kill people. 2. They do so at a much higher rate than other vaccines have done in the past. 3. They can hurt fertility (see the recent crash in birth rates around the world). 4. For the vast majority they were not a good cost/benefit tradeoff. 5. Lockdowns were a failed policy and failed in the way lockdown opponents said they'd be at the start. Some of these things are actually already being admitted in some quarters, if you look closely. Bill Gates, Mr Vaccine himself, recently admitted that COVID is a disease that "a disease mainly of the elderly, kind of like flu". Remember how people who said COVID is basically a bad flu were treated in 2020? How people who said the vaccines don't make sense for anyone except the elderly in 2021? And w.r.t. injuries you're seeing the Nordic countries pull the vaccines for young people because the cost/benefit tradeoff is wrong. Moderna specifically got banned in parts of Europe for I think the under 30s, though if you look at the data used to justify that it should really have been for more like the under 50s and that data is certainly way too optimistic anyway due to under-reporting. So far it's still dead silence on fertility. But birth rates are public. Anyone can draw graphs of them, align them seasonally and see the massive drop that starts 9 months after the vaccine rollout reached women of childbearing age. Reality is most of the things labelled as conspiracy theories never were. They were people saying wait, these decisions make no rational sense, this is clearly mass hysteria and needs to be opposed. No conspiracy was invoked by the vast majority of the most vocal opponents I follow - just irrationality and institutional, culturally embedded ethical problems in the public health sector.

anankaie 4y ago
It did not help that there were strong political partisan effects further corrupting this situation beyond what you have noted. I have to admit, I really wonder what the counterfactual world (where Trump got elected for a second term) would look like with respect to which groups believe which information.
exq 4y ago
[flagged]
- origin_path 4y ago
  That started in Q1 2020, not Q1 2022. So no, it's not that. Birth rates were unaffected throughout the worst of lockdowns and the economic crash.
- bzzzt 4y ago
  Also, don't forget to compensate for 2 years of isolation instead of people going to bars, concerts, schools. Much less opportunity of meeting each other and doing the thing that leads to babies...
- troon-lover 4y ago
plundgren 4y ago
You are clearly oversimplifying the relation between fertility and vaccines. You have no data to back up causation rather than correlation. It is the same flawed argument used by people who think vaccines cause autism. "Oh my kid presented with autism when he was checked and was recently vaccinated, clearly it must be the cause!".
- origin_path 4y ago
  No, there's actually plenty of data. Huge numbers of women have reported disrupted periods immediately after taking the vaccines. They were all ignored, of course because of dumb "correlation is not causation" arguments like yours. Correlation does not imply causation but causation always implies correlation, so when something fundamentally changes in a biological process as basic as reproduction and the only change of similar scale that matches temporally is an experimental new medical technology, you have to be willfully blind to not want an immediate, thorough and unconflicted investigation into that, because if it isn't the vaccines then that is one hell of a coincidence. We aren't going to get such an investigation of course, because the public health community doesn't want to admit the possibility that their policies have negative side effects. So correlations will be the best we'll get.
  - skyde 4y ago
    “ public health community doesn't want to admit the possibility that their policies have negative side effects” Any phd student could do the research and publish it. And if they are right the research paper will become famous. I think you just anthropomorphism big organizations and give them feeling and motivation. This is something conspirationnist like to do because it give the impression that a big group of people aware of the “secret” are knowingly against them
    - sazz 4y ago
      > Any phd student could do the research and publish it. And if they are right the research paper will become famous. Absolutely wrong. If a medical student publishes such a paper, the following will happen: 1. Lancet & co. will reject publication. Peer review will be rejected because no one can be found to mess with the pharma industry. 2. student decides to upload it to an open access server. A link is posted to various interest groups. 3. FB, YT and Google will add a warning to each posting with this link that it's contradicts current CDC findings. 4. a fact checker will quickly write an article pointing out that experienced medical professionals do not see any correlation and the student should rather continue studying 5. the university will distance itself from the paper 6. Anthony Fauci & Christian Drosten will publish a joint statement calling the data insufficient and the analysis flawed. Then they will point out something about correlation and causality and simply deny a connection between birth rate and vaccinations 7. the medical student's career is over before it has even begun P.S.: this has happened already several times. But fair enough - not everytime Fauci & Drosten had to intervene to keep people silenced.
skyde 4y ago
people who said COVID is basically a bad flu are still wrong because Covid kill a lot more people than the flue. because covid unlike the flue will kill people that are other perfectly healthy
- overrun11 4y ago
  > because covid unlike the flue will kill people that are other perfectly healthy Not true. Every flu season there are stories of young people in great shape– often athletes or in the military, who die due to the flu.
  - skyde 4y ago
    right but if you go to the ER it’s not full of young people with the flue. But I still remember Italy ER having lot of young people on ventilator!
    - netmonk 4y ago
      Lot of obese peoples or skinny fat people (skinny but with obese metabolism) all about muscle/fat ratio. It’s not because you look good on instagram that you are healthy… Time to fight superstitions
kennywinker 4y ago
Re your first point. This was always true. The cdc has always had a page listing incidents from vaccines. They’re just EXCEEDINGLY rare, much rarer than bad health outcomes from covid. If your point #2 was true at ALL there would have to have been millions hospitalized from the vaccine… and we all know that’s not true. Covid has BECOME a disease that primarily effects the elderly and immunocompromised. That was due to the huge vaccination efforts, and mutations in the disease. Either way, I’m still wearing a mask when I go grocery shopping because I don’t want to be the one who gives covid to someone’s grandma, or someone doing chemotherapy.
- overrun11 4y ago
  > Covid has BECOME a disease that primarily effects the elderly and immunocompromised. Could you point to a reference on this? My understanding was COVID had always primarily affected the elderly and immunocompromised.
  - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
    Depends on how you define "primarily". Elderly and immunocompromised have always been at a much higher risk, but there were still thousands of young, healthy people who died in the pre-vaccine days.
    - kurupt213 4y ago
      This isn’t true.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        It, in fact, is true.
        netmonk 4y ago
        May be your definition of “healthy” might be reviewed. Most <40yo dying were morbid obese. Not healthy.

anankaie 4y ago

It did not help that there were strong political partisan effects further corrupting this situation beyond what you have noted. I have to admit, I really wonder what the counterfactual world (where Trump got elected for a second term) would look like with respect to which groups believe which information.

exq 4y ago

[flagged]

origin_path 4y ago
That started in Q1 2020, not Q1 2022. So no, it's not that. Birth rates were unaffected throughout the worst of lockdowns and the economic crash.
bzzzt 4y ago
Also, don't forget to compensate for 2 years of isolation instead of people going to bars, concerts, schools. Much less opportunity of meeting each other and doing the thing that leads to babies...
troon-lover 4y ago

plundgren 4y ago

You are clearly oversimplifying the relation between fertility and vaccines. You have no data to back up causation rather than correlation. It is the same flawed argument used by people who think vaccines cause autism. "Oh my kid presented with autism when he was checked and was recently vaccinated, clearly it must be the cause!".

origin_path 4y ago
No, there's actually plenty of data. Huge numbers of women have reported disrupted periods immediately after taking the vaccines. They were all ignored, of course because of dumb "correlation is not causation" arguments like yours. Correlation does not imply causation but causation always implies correlation, so when something fundamentally changes in a biological process as basic as reproduction and the only change of similar scale that matches temporally is an experimental new medical technology, you have to be willfully blind to not want an immediate, thorough and unconflicted investigation into that, because if it isn't the vaccines then that is one hell of a coincidence. We aren't going to get such an investigation of course, because the public health community doesn't want to admit the possibility that their policies have negative side effects. So correlations will be the best we'll get.
- skyde 4y ago
  “ public health community doesn't want to admit the possibility that their policies have negative side effects” Any phd student could do the research and publish it. And if they are right the research paper will become famous. I think you just anthropomorphism big organizations and give them feeling and motivation. This is something conspirationnist like to do because it give the impression that a big group of people aware of the “secret” are knowingly against them
  - sazz 4y ago
    > Any phd student could do the research and publish it. And if they are right the research paper will become famous. Absolutely wrong. If a medical student publishes such a paper, the following will happen: 1. Lancet & co. will reject publication. Peer review will be rejected because no one can be found to mess with the pharma industry. 2. student decides to upload it to an open access server. A link is posted to various interest groups. 3. FB, YT and Google will add a warning to each posting with this link that it's contradicts current CDC findings. 4. a fact checker will quickly write an article pointing out that experienced medical professionals do not see any correlation and the student should rather continue studying 5. the university will distance itself from the paper 6. Anthony Fauci & Christian Drosten will publish a joint statement calling the data insufficient and the analysis flawed. Then they will point out something about correlation and causality and simply deny a connection between birth rate and vaccinations 7. the medical student's career is over before it has even begun P.S.: this has happened already several times. But fair enough - not everytime Fauci & Drosten had to intervene to keep people silenced.

skyde 4y ago

people who said COVID is basically a bad flu are still wrong because Covid kill a lot more people than the flue. because covid unlike the flue will kill people that are other perfectly healthy

overrun11 4y ago
> because covid unlike the flue will kill people that are other perfectly healthy Not true. Every flu season there are stories of young people in great shape– often athletes or in the military, who die due to the flu.
- skyde 4y ago
  right but if you go to the ER it’s not full of young people with the flue. But I still remember Italy ER having lot of young people on ventilator!
  - netmonk 4y ago
    Lot of obese peoples or skinny fat people (skinny but with obese metabolism) all about muscle/fat ratio. It’s not because you look good on instagram that you are healthy… Time to fight superstitions

kennywinker 4y ago

Re your first point. This was always true. The cdc has always had a page listing incidents from vaccines. They’re just EXCEEDINGLY rare, much rarer than bad health outcomes from covid. If your point #2 was true at ALL there would have to have been millions hospitalized from the vaccine… and we all know that’s not true. Covid has BECOME a disease that primarily effects the elderly and immunocompromised. That was due to the huge vaccination efforts, and mutations in the disease. Either way, I’m still wearing a mask when I go grocery shopping because I don’t want to be the one who gives covid to someone’s grandma, or someone doing chemotherapy.

overrun11 4y ago
> Covid has BECOME a disease that primarily effects the elderly and immunocompromised. Could you point to a reference on this? My understanding was COVID had always primarily affected the elderly and immunocompromised.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Depends on how you define "primarily". Elderly and immunocompromised have always been at a much higher risk, but there were still thousands of young, healthy people who died in the pre-vaccine days.
  - kurupt213 4y ago
    This isn’t true.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      It, in fact, is true.
      - netmonk 4y ago
        May be your definition of “healthy” might be reviewed. Most <40yo dying were morbid obese. Not healthy.