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I'm honestly amazed that this is a "novel" look. Most of Croatian coast has Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it. T

I'm honestly amazed that this is a "novel" look. Most of Croatian coast has Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it. The Ottomans didn't really have much to do with the Adriatic and the Austro-Hungarians came quite late. Who did historians think Croatian coast was mostly influenced by up until now?

ithkuil 4y ago
Croatians are quite proud of the history of stopping the ottoman invasion. See for example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjska_alka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjska_alka Today's croatian borders reflect thr defense line against ottoman invasion. Infact, the part of Croatia that fell to the ottomans is now known as Herzegovina, which now forms the Bosnia and Herzegovina country.
- jakupovic 4y ago
  Hercegovina was never part of Croatia, as it was always Bosnia and Hercegovina. Please find a different outlet for your nationalistic lies.
  - zmxz 4y ago
    I never thought I'd read this kind of comment on HN, I don't know how you're not ashamed of yourself and involving politics in this kind of discussion. Awful. There are other forums you can use for this kind of communication.
    - jakupovic 4y ago
      "the part of Croatia that fell to the ottomans is now known as Herzegovina, which now forms the Bosnia and Herzegovina country." That is definitely not technical discussion nor is it true, and this is what I responded to.
      - ithkuil 4y ago
        FFS. Yeah nationalists will bend history so they can tell how things would be right now, and I loathe that as well. But that doesn't mean that the opposite of what nationalists say must be true by definition. Parts of Herzegovina were indeed populated by ethnic Croatians and part of it was even under the kingdom of Croatia (not that being under a rule of a give king has anything to do with the ethnicity of people who live there) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_personal_union_with_Hungary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_personal_union_wi... EDIT: typos
      - zmxz 4y ago
        [flagged]
        jakupovic 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you're talking about with loopholes comment. This, "there's nothing to gain with this discussion and you did not provide a single proof", and yet you continue trying to right an obvious wrong. Also, please stop with personal attacks, language barrier, etc. I responded to something which was wrong and didn't belong here, and you're attacking me. Please stop.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        "Please find a different outlet for your nationalistic lies" also probably counts as a personal attack. Almost certainly it is against the site guidelines, which call for the most charitable interpretation of what others say.
        zmxz 4y ago
        There's no obvious wrong except from your point of view and you provided no evidence to prove the wrong. I'm not making personal attacks, you are. There's a language barrier which prevents you from reading what was written with comprehension. You're obviously not native English speaker and I'm sure you skimmed the text before replying. I wrote nothing that's an attack, I can't read the text for you and I can't know how you read what others write as I'm not inside your head. All I can tell you wrote nothing about the original article, you jumped at a person and wrote that they write nationalistic lies. That's an attack. I just wrote, politely, that due to barrier present - this might not be the best site for you to use and that there are others out there that are in-line with the way you communicate and topics you're interested in discussing. Outright attacking someone about "nationalistic lies" without even knowing their nationality implies you assumed the nationality, identity and intent. That's not something smart people do, therefore - why not fly to your flock? I'm unsure what offends you, I did not make you not smart. You did that yourself.
- binarray2000 4y ago
  > "Croatians are quite proud of the history of stopping the ottoman invasion." How come that (under the heading "Demographics") Wikipedia lists [0] the "Eastern Orthodox" were still majority in 1828? Were they Croats? Or - MAYBE, just MAYBE - Serbs? And is it possible that those Christian Orthodox Serbs were converting to Roman-Catholicism (under Austrian pressure)? Look at the numbers in that article, the number of Orthodox falls by 1.78% and the number of Catholics rises by 1.5%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier
BerislavLopac 4y ago
> Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it To be pedantic: It used to be first language in many areas, but since at least WW2 it is exclusively a second language. It wasn't Italian as much as Venetian, which is quite a distinct Italian dialect. During most of the history Italy didn't even exist, and the eastern Adriatic coast was exclusively influenced by the Republic of Venice. Most people don't realise how new Italy is as a single nation.
- binarray2000 4y ago
  Using your logic ("During most of the history Italy didn't even exist"), the same can be said about Croatia. The two times Croatia for sure has existed in history was (1) from 1941 to 1945 [0] - as a Nazi-supported and -supporting country, committing crimes against Christian-Orthodox Serbs, Jews and Romani people with support of the Roman-Catholic Church and Nazi-Germany/Austria [1] and (2) from 1991 into the present - when that state (with the help of Germany, Austria and RCC) was re-awakened to finish the job of pushing Christian-Orthodoxy and the Serbs away from the Adriatic sea and toward East [2]. Every other claim that Croatia has existed prior to 1941 is just a fantasy. The "List of rulers of Croatia" is such an example [3]. The heading "Under the Habsburgs (1527–1918)" is in the category ROTFL. They are ALL Germans but your people seriously write they were "Croatian rulers"! Next heading ("Kings of Yugoslavia (1918–1941)") is even more hilarious: There, Croatian editors list three rulers, ALL of which were Christian-Orthodox Serbs! That LITTLE fact is not mentioned in the article. One of them was "Assassinated by the VMRO with Ustaše support in 1934." Ustaše are Croatian terrorist organisation that has later led the first Croatian state from 1941 until 1945. But, hey, he is a "Croatian ruler"! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia
  - partly_sane 4y ago
    Dude, chill. I've been lurking HN for 15 years, and you made me create an account just to respond to this. Comments like these are the reason why everyone thinks we are a bunch of crazy ultra-nationalists. OP said nothing about Croatian state, or rulers, or church or anything. Do you just cruse the internet and start spewing random Ustase fact every time the word Croatia pops up? Even if there was anything objectionable in what was said there are way less unhinged ways to respond. We are all victims of selective and glorified history taught in our schools (plus a steady diet of hatred-filled media) and through normal dialog we can all learn more about each other's perspectives.

ithkuil 4y ago

Croatians are quite proud of the history of stopping the ottoman invasion. See for example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjska_alka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjska_alka Today's croatian borders reflect thr defense line against ottoman invasion. Infact, the part of Croatia that fell to the ottomans is now known as Herzegovina, which now forms the Bosnia and Herzegovina country.

jakupovic 4y ago
Hercegovina was never part of Croatia, as it was always Bosnia and Hercegovina. Please find a different outlet for your nationalistic lies.
- zmxz 4y ago
  I never thought I'd read this kind of comment on HN, I don't know how you're not ashamed of yourself and involving politics in this kind of discussion. Awful. There are other forums you can use for this kind of communication.
  - jakupovic 4y ago
    "the part of Croatia that fell to the ottomans is now known as Herzegovina, which now forms the Bosnia and Herzegovina country." That is definitely not technical discussion nor is it true, and this is what I responded to.
    - ithkuil 4y ago
      FFS. Yeah nationalists will bend history so they can tell how things would be right now, and I loathe that as well. But that doesn't mean that the opposite of what nationalists say must be true by definition. Parts of Herzegovina were indeed populated by ethnic Croatians and part of it was even under the kingdom of Croatia (not that being under a rule of a give king has anything to do with the ethnicity of people who live there) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_personal_union_with_Hungary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_personal_union_wi... EDIT: typos
    - zmxz 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - jakupovic 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you're talking about with loopholes comment. This, "there's nothing to gain with this discussion and you did not provide a single proof", and yet you continue trying to right an obvious wrong. Also, please stop with personal attacks, language barrier, etc. I responded to something which was wrong and didn't belong here, and you're attacking me. Please stop.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        "Please find a different outlet for your nationalistic lies" also probably counts as a personal attack. Almost certainly it is against the site guidelines, which call for the most charitable interpretation of what others say.
        zmxz 4y ago
        There's no obvious wrong except from your point of view and you provided no evidence to prove the wrong. I'm not making personal attacks, you are. There's a language barrier which prevents you from reading what was written with comprehension. You're obviously not native English speaker and I'm sure you skimmed the text before replying. I wrote nothing that's an attack, I can't read the text for you and I can't know how you read what others write as I'm not inside your head. All I can tell you wrote nothing about the original article, you jumped at a person and wrote that they write nationalistic lies. That's an attack. I just wrote, politely, that due to barrier present - this might not be the best site for you to use and that there are others out there that are in-line with the way you communicate and topics you're interested in discussing. Outright attacking someone about "nationalistic lies" without even knowing their nationality implies you assumed the nationality, identity and intent. That's not something smart people do, therefore - why not fly to your flock? I'm unsure what offends you, I did not make you not smart. You did that yourself.
binarray2000 4y ago
> "Croatians are quite proud of the history of stopping the ottoman invasion." How come that (under the heading "Demographics") Wikipedia lists [0] the "Eastern Orthodox" were still majority in 1828? Were they Croats? Or - MAYBE, just MAYBE - Serbs? And is it possible that those Christian Orthodox Serbs were converting to Roman-Catholicism (under Austrian pressure)? Look at the numbers in that article, the number of Orthodox falls by 1.78% and the number of Catholics rises by 1.5%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier

BerislavLopac 4y ago

> Italian as first or second language, or a local language heavily influenced by it To be pedantic: It used to be first language in many areas, but since at least WW2 it is exclusively a second language. It wasn't Italian as much as Venetian, which is quite a distinct Italian dialect. During most of the history Italy didn't even exist, and the eastern Adriatic coast was exclusively influenced by the Republic of Venice. Most people don't realise how new Italy is as a single nation.

binarray2000 4y ago
Using your logic ("During most of the history Italy didn't even exist"), the same can be said about Croatia. The two times Croatia for sure has existed in history was (1) from 1941 to 1945 [0] - as a Nazi-supported and -supporting country, committing crimes against Christian-Orthodox Serbs, Jews and Romani people with support of the Roman-Catholic Church and Nazi-Germany/Austria [1] and (2) from 1991 into the present - when that state (with the help of Germany, Austria and RCC) was re-awakened to finish the job of pushing Christian-Orthodoxy and the Serbs away from the Adriatic sea and toward East [2]. Every other claim that Croatia has existed prior to 1941 is just a fantasy. The "List of rulers of Croatia" is such an example [3]. The heading "Under the Habsburgs (1527–1918)" is in the category ROTFL. They are ALL Germans but your people seriously write they were "Croatian rulers"! Next heading ("Kings of Yugoslavia (1918–1941)") is even more hilarious: There, Croatian editors list three rulers, ALL of which were Christian-Orthodox Serbs! That LITTLE fact is not mentioned in the article. One of them was "Assassinated by the VMRO with Ustaše support in 1934." Ustaše are Croatian terrorist organisation that has later led the first Croatian state from 1941 until 1945. But, hey, he is a "Croatian ruler"! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Croatia
- partly_sane 4y ago
  Dude, chill. I've been lurking HN for 15 years, and you made me create an account just to respond to this. Comments like these are the reason why everyone thinks we are a bunch of crazy ultra-nationalists. OP said nothing about Croatian state, or rulers, or church or anything. Do you just cruse the internet and start spewing random Ustase fact every time the word Croatia pops up? Even if there was anything objectionable in what was said there are way less unhinged ways to respond. We are all victims of selective and glorified history taught in our schools (plus a steady diet of hatred-filled media) and through normal dialog we can all learn more about each other's perspectives.