4 ms·

I see the claim made that caste-ism doesn't fall under existing discrimination laws, but I don't really see how it's actually any different from run-of-the-mill

I see the claim made that caste-ism doesn't fall under existing discrimination laws, but I don't really see how it's actually any different from run-of-the-mill racism. Caste is familially inherited. So a person is being judged based upon their ancestry. The only difference between "that group of families is inherently inferior" and "that race is inherently inferior" seems to be how broadly/narrowly you define "race". So a legal argument should be able to be made that discriminating based on caste is discriminating based on race, a protected class. Am I missing something? If so could someone correct me?

29athrowaway 4y ago
The law should simply say: do you observe any beliefs that make you treat a group of people in a favorable or unfavorable way, based on criteria other than academic or professional qualifications? If so, you should declare your conflict of interest at the beginning of each meeting and document and be excluded from professional decisions involving hiring, firing, promotions, etc. Ideally, this should also apply to investors not only employers.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  Is "according to my personal experience this person generally knows what they're talking about" a professional qualification, or are you thinking more like formal certs?
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Replace "academic and professional qualifications" with "competence-based merit", in order to avoid committing credentialism which can become yet another form of arbitrary clique-like discrimination.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - deleted 4y ago
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- xwdv 4y ago
  Why should it apply to investors? It is no one’s business where an investor chooses to put their money, their goal is to make a return, not uphold some moral code.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Then why have a different moral code for employers and investors?
- arise 4y ago
  The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. When you remove the human element (including intuition, tacit knowledge, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character), you're going to get absurdities that cost society way more than any conceivable benefit.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    >The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. prove it. Anyway, doesn't seem likely, there are first of all various medical and psychological conditions in which intuition, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character are impacted, which would mean that some people with these conditions would not be prone to the beliefs that come from these states. Furthermore there are wide variances in humans as to how much one accepts tradition, authority, how much one searches out newness etc. given all these factors it strikes me as unlikely that every human would be susceptible to the beliefs that probably affect most of the population around them. I am however perfectly content to say the person who has no such beliefs is an outlier.
    - arise 4y ago
      You have four candidates who are all the same on paper--have the same qualifications, experience, etc--and will be serving as a critical liaison between your customers and the technical team. Which one do you hire? (1) The candidate with a face tattoo and ear gauges (holes) who was observed to "roll coal" when he left the interview in a lifted truck with entirely too many skulls and anarchist emblems. (2) The one with an extremely thick accent that is near unintelligible. [HR says he has a top TOEFL score and satisfies the "speaks English" requirement.] (3) The candidate who showed up a little late, a little underdressed, a little distracted--maybe demure--, and who just generally didn't seem to want the job. (4) The candidate who is enthusiastic, pleasant, good at small talk, and who uses the "do you have any questions for us?" part of the interview to ask surprisingly pertinent/proactive questions about the challenges your team is facing instead of focusing on benefits/pay etc. You might argue that many of the attributes I've mentioned are valid "professional qualifications". But remember, that term--under OPs law--will not be your notion of qualifications: it'll be a contorted mess of statue plus case law plus HR policies plus things you can clearly articulate in advance in the job criteria and prove to some jury against a plantiff with a sob story.
thematrixturtle 4y ago
The interesting thing about caste is that it's basically invisible: unlike race, you can't tell somebody's caste by looking at them. (There is some correlation to skin color, but there are also plenty of eg Tamil Brahmins who are very dark-skinned.) Which is why caste-conscious Indians meeting new people go through an elaborate dance asking about family name, where they're from, if they're vegetarian etc to figure out their caste.
- bodhiandpysics1 4y ago
  It's often also very local. Everyone knows who some castes are like Patels and Nayars, but how many people in north india know that vellalars are relatively high caste (but not brahman) for instance. And of course the specific relationship between various castes can change village to village.
- rg111 4y ago
  Indian friend told me that you can know the caste by their last names. And this is true for most last names. Isn't that true?
  - chupchap 4y ago
    True if you know all the caste names, but a lot of caste names in the south don't fit into the four buckets used in the north. Which makes for a very interesting discussion.
  - samarthr1 4y ago
    Due to the actions of EV Ramaswamy Naicker, a lot of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu were forced to give up their traditional surnames, and made to instead take on their father's names.
    - hzay 4y ago
      Ah, found the racist brahmin. First time I'm hearing this passive aggressive "Naicker" attached to Periyar's name. I'm torn between calling you out and asking for a source for your claim. Going to do both. Salty much? Plz link to source lol.
tehlike 4y ago
I'm also curious handling about other races. İf, say, a brahmin, on average, favor a brahmin over a white/black/asian/etc. Surely if caste implies a class, that has to have bias for/against others too
tomohawk 4y ago
Caste is discrimination based on religion. The discriminator views the victim as being less deserving based on religious ideology. The religious ideology insists that a person born to a certain caste deserves it based on something they supposedly did in a past lifetime. It thus excuses the prejudicial behavior as a form of cosmic justice.
- margalabargala 4y ago
  I can understand that this is how those who participate in caste discrimination may justify it to themselves. But, I do not see how in the US, that claim somehow makes its way around racial discrimination laws, where to someone not sharing that religious belief, it very much appears as though people are simply discriminating based on ancestry i.e. race.
  - tomohawk 4y ago
    I do not see why caste based discrimination should be legal given the current law, but high caste people have powerful positions in these important companies. They are politically connected. It may take a while for the case law and EEO machinery to put a stop to it.

29athrowaway 4y ago

The law should simply say: do you observe any beliefs that make you treat a group of people in a favorable or unfavorable way, based on criteria other than academic or professional qualifications? If so, you should declare your conflict of interest at the beginning of each meeting and document and be excluded from professional decisions involving hiring, firing, promotions, etc. Ideally, this should also apply to investors not only employers.

tbrownaw 4y ago
Is "according to my personal experience this person generally knows what they're talking about" a professional qualification, or are you thinking more like formal certs?
hackerlight 4y ago
Replace "academic and professional qualifications" with "competence-based merit", in order to avoid committing credentialism which can become yet another form of arbitrary clique-like discrimination.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
xwdv 4y ago
Why should it apply to investors? It is no one’s business where an investor chooses to put their money, their goal is to make a return, not uphold some moral code.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Then why have a different moral code for employers and investors?
arise 4y ago
The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. When you remove the human element (including intuition, tacit knowledge, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character), you're going to get absurdities that cost society way more than any conceivable benefit.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  >The person who claims they have no such beliefs is lying. prove it. Anyway, doesn't seem likely, there are first of all various medical and psychological conditions in which intuition, reading of social-behavioral cues, and subjective assessments of temperament and character are impacted, which would mean that some people with these conditions would not be prone to the beliefs that come from these states. Furthermore there are wide variances in humans as to how much one accepts tradition, authority, how much one searches out newness etc. given all these factors it strikes me as unlikely that every human would be susceptible to the beliefs that probably affect most of the population around them. I am however perfectly content to say the person who has no such beliefs is an outlier.
  - arise 4y ago
    You have four candidates who are all the same on paper--have the same qualifications, experience, etc--and will be serving as a critical liaison between your customers and the technical team. Which one do you hire? (1) The candidate with a face tattoo and ear gauges (holes) who was observed to "roll coal" when he left the interview in a lifted truck with entirely too many skulls and anarchist emblems. (2) The one with an extremely thick accent that is near unintelligible. [HR says he has a top TOEFL score and satisfies the "speaks English" requirement.] (3) The candidate who showed up a little late, a little underdressed, a little distracted--maybe demure--, and who just generally didn't seem to want the job. (4) The candidate who is enthusiastic, pleasant, good at small talk, and who uses the "do you have any questions for us?" part of the interview to ask surprisingly pertinent/proactive questions about the challenges your team is facing instead of focusing on benefits/pay etc. You might argue that many of the attributes I've mentioned are valid "professional qualifications". But remember, that term--under OPs law--will not be your notion of qualifications: it'll be a contorted mess of statue plus case law plus HR policies plus things you can clearly articulate in advance in the job criteria and prove to some jury against a plantiff with a sob story.

thematrixturtle 4y ago

The interesting thing about caste is that it's basically invisible: unlike race, you can't tell somebody's caste by looking at them. (There is some correlation to skin color, but there are also plenty of eg Tamil Brahmins who are very dark-skinned.) Which is why caste-conscious Indians meeting new people go through an elaborate dance asking about family name, where they're from, if they're vegetarian etc to figure out their caste.

bodhiandpysics1 4y ago
It's often also very local. Everyone knows who some castes are like Patels and Nayars, but how many people in north india know that vellalars are relatively high caste (but not brahman) for instance. And of course the specific relationship between various castes can change village to village.
rg111 4y ago
Indian friend told me that you can know the caste by their last names. And this is true for most last names. Isn't that true?
- chupchap 4y ago
  True if you know all the caste names, but a lot of caste names in the south don't fit into the four buckets used in the north. Which makes for a very interesting discussion.
- samarthr1 4y ago
  Due to the actions of EV Ramaswamy Naicker, a lot of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu were forced to give up their traditional surnames, and made to instead take on their father's names.
  - hzay 4y ago
    Ah, found the racist brahmin. First time I'm hearing this passive aggressive "Naicker" attached to Periyar's name. I'm torn between calling you out and asking for a source for your claim. Going to do both. Salty much? Plz link to source lol.

tehlike 4y ago

I'm also curious handling about other races. İf, say, a brahmin, on average, favor a brahmin over a white/black/asian/etc. Surely if caste implies a class, that has to have bias for/against others too

tomohawk 4y ago

Caste is discrimination based on religion. The discriminator views the victim as being less deserving based on religious ideology. The religious ideology insists that a person born to a certain caste deserves it based on something they supposedly did in a past lifetime. It thus excuses the prejudicial behavior as a form of cosmic justice.

margalabargala 4y ago
I can understand that this is how those who participate in caste discrimination may justify it to themselves. But, I do not see how in the US, that claim somehow makes its way around racial discrimination laws, where to someone not sharing that religious belief, it very much appears as though people are simply discriminating based on ancestry i.e. race.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  I do not see why caste based discrimination should be legal given the current law, but high caste people have powerful positions in these important companies. They are politically connected. It may take a while for the case law and EEO machinery to put a stop to it.